7 ms·

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in pub

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you think this is an exaggeration, consider the availability of spare parts today for a computer system commissioned 33 years ago, in 1984 — an original IBM PC XT, perhaps, or an original Macintosh, both of which were manufactured in — for the time — high volume. Things like 5.25" floppy disks, or a replacement M-series IBM keyboard with the original DIN plug, were once ubiquitous, but today they're rarities.) 2. A second concern is that these days everything comes with an embedded processor and an enterprising hostile entity might try to sneak malware on board a fast attack submarine via the periscope controller handset. (I've no idea what form such malware might take, or what it might accomplish, but that's not the point: it's that using cheap commercial handsets widens the threat surface of the submarine's sensor suite arbitrarily.)

vacri 9y ago
1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller? Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984. Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG machine, and the keyboard was capacitive metal tabs. No travel at all - they simply registered when pressed by a finger but not other things (like a modern smartphone screen). I'd much rather dig up a common keyboard than one of those curios.
- cube00 9y ago
  Is Microsoft going to be willing to share their original specs so you can build an identical controller years down the track? Given we're talking military here reverse engineering to remake wouldn't be acceptable.
  - sfifs 9y ago
    Given it's military, they're very likely already sharing NOW.
  - zentiggr 9y ago
    There have been third-party Xbox controllers almost since the console came out. No doubt ONE of them will gobble up a DoD contract to continue production if it's offered. (Former Submarine FT)
    - moftz 9y ago
      The military has been buying 360 controllers to do a bunch of different things and I'm sure MS has been providing them on contract and will continue to provide them because it's easy money.
  - chuckdries 9y ago
    Yes Xinput is a pervasive standard at this point, to where there is a large market of third party controllers and software support in various linux distros as well as a JS api to access it in Chrome and Firefox.
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    You wouldn't need an identical controller, just one that has an identical line protocol. In this case it's a USB HID Device that prescribes to the XInput Hardware API. Logitech, Razer, and others already make compatible devices.
  - rhino369 9y ago
    As long as the military doesn't buy them on Amazon.com, yea they probably would. Escrow of technical and IP documents is pretty common in industry procurement, I'd imagine that it's even more common in procurement for defense.
  - path411 9y ago
    Dude, it's Microsoft. Most of their business is to the government.
GunlogAlm 9y ago
I personally doubt that scarcity will be too big an issue with Xbox 360 controllers for the foreseeable future — development of new 360 hardware only ended in April last year. I can think of no piece of consumer electronics cheaper to source and repair than the 360 controller. I'm sure, though, that both 1. and 2. are concerns the US Navy will have given ample consideration before making this move.
- ngz00 9y ago
  can you fix my controller? last I checked they were like $60
  - GunlogAlm 9y ago
    You can buy 360 controllers for £25 ($33) new here in the UK.
- rmc 9y ago
  The SNES came out 27 years ago. Can you still get controllers for it? (Imagine if current submarines were using SNES controllers... )
  - chuckdries 9y ago
    Did the SNES controller become a de facto standard? Because the xbox 360 controller is one. There are plenty of xinput compatible gamepads from different manufacturers, the largest right now is Logitech. Xinput became pervasive because of PC gaming, it had really good support within windows, and support has been implemented now in Linux and directly in Chrome and Firefox. It's also really popular in the robotics world for exactly the reasons the navy outlined, a group I worked with used 3rd party xbox controllers almost exclusively. The tooling support is there as well, labview has built in xbox 360 controller support, and idk about other competing software but it probably does as well.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Yes, very easily and cheaply: https://www.amazon.co.uk/TRIXES-Retro-Replacement-Controller-Gamepad/dp/B01MXRQW5F/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_107_lp_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=S951N70ESJ5DJ0Y6HX7B https://www.amazon.co.uk/TRIXES-Retro-Replacement-Controller...
c0m0 9y ago
1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?
- mysterydip 9y ago
  "Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.
  - skj 9y ago
    Next to the cost of a submarine I believe "excess stock" inefficiencies will be unnoticeable. Probably compared to the cost of custom hardware, too.
    - mysterydip 9y ago
      The issue is there's a difference between where the money comes from (capex vs opex for a simplified and incorrect example). Your support areas don't get the same budget as your construction areas. And when money runs out for the year you still have to keep thinngs running. And while I agree that excess stock costs pale in comparison to a sub or boat, multiply that by every part necessary to keep one operational, and then face all the people every year who say the defense budget needs cut.
  - BartSaM 9y ago
    There is hardly a thing, like a wasted hardware in the military. For such a purchase you do not make a guess and buy. You make a guess, multiply it by 3 and then buy. Cost saved by going for customer grade electronics vs. specialized will easily justify this. You will still be saving lots of money.
chuckdries 9y ago
The xinput gamepad is a pervasive standard, with plenty of third party hardware implementations and wide software support across operating systems. Heck, even Chrome and Firefox have JS apis to access xbox controller input. Eventually it will be surpassed, but it's far more available and supported than whatever they were doing before, and its simple enough to be easy to continue to manufacture. Also, do we really think the military couldn't find someone to contract with to continue making them if they needed to? Knock offs are $20 on Amazon, they're very simple devices.
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  > Knock offs are $20 on Amazon, they're very simple devices. And that goes right into cstross' second point...
  - Sebguer 9y ago
    Their point was very obviously not that we should buy the $20 knock-offs, but that building these devices is very simple and can be done cheaply.
jasonmaydie 9y ago
first concern doesn't seem like a big issue, this is a standard usb connector controller not a custom built device so it should be easy to replace. second concern should be taken seriously however.
LibertyBeta 9y ago
Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harden it then we have a lot of other options, up to and including a bespoke controller. I guess what I'm saying is that video game controls are so much fun for a reason. They 'just work'. And while there is a little bit of dystopian sheen to seeing video games become the source for defacto tooling for war machines I'm always for a simplification of man/machine interactions.
- kbutler 9y ago
  Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? > video game controls are so much fun for a reason I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse.
  - mipmap04 9y ago
    Even if you spend a ton of time and money hardening it, if the xbox-like game controller is more efficient and easier to train on, then you save there in training costs and improved operational effectiveness. This of course relies on an assumption that the current method of control is overly complicated and difficult.
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    > Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? This is the worst-case scenario for what is a rather overblown concern in the first place. > I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse. Even when operating a submarine?
    - C0DEHERO 9y ago
      > Even when operating a submarine? Exactly, use the correct controller for the correct scenario. Keyboard+mouse works for many games, but for games where you control vehicles (racing games, aircraft simulators, submarines), joystick controls just work better. Also, let's not forget that Microsoft would probably help out with hardening the security of the controllers. It's not like the Navy would have to reverse engineer the controller to figure out how to make it more secure.
christophilus 9y ago
To your second point, these things are manifactured in China. What's to prevent them from adding tracking devices or backdoors to these if they realize they're going into US military ships?
- mabbo 9y ago
  How do you know which ones are headed for a submarine? The military could literally just pick a BestBuy and go pick up a dozen controllers whenever they're at a port. The manufacturers in China would have to put backdoors into all of them, which would be noticed pretty quickly, and the gain is what? They can control the periscope direction? That would be noticed immediately too. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it sounds more like a plot device for a "set your brain on the seat beside you" action movie.
- DiThi 9y ago
  Both points are already solved if they have already bought a lifetime supply of controllers, which as a sibling comment says, it's not far fetched.

vacri 9y ago

1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller? Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984. Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG machine, and the keyboard was capacitive metal tabs. No travel at all - they simply registered when pressed by a finger but not other things (like a modern smartphone screen). I'd much rather dig up a common keyboard than one of those curios.

cube00 9y ago
Is Microsoft going to be willing to share their original specs so you can build an identical controller years down the track? Given we're talking military here reverse engineering to remake wouldn't be acceptable.
- sfifs 9y ago
  Given it's military, they're very likely already sharing NOW.
- zentiggr 9y ago
  There have been third-party Xbox controllers almost since the console came out. No doubt ONE of them will gobble up a DoD contract to continue production if it's offered. (Former Submarine FT)
  - moftz 9y ago
    The military has been buying 360 controllers to do a bunch of different things and I'm sure MS has been providing them on contract and will continue to provide them because it's easy money.
- chuckdries 9y ago
  Yes Xinput is a pervasive standard at this point, to where there is a large market of third party controllers and software support in various linux distros as well as a JS api to access it in Chrome and Firefox.
- cptskippy 9y ago
  You wouldn't need an identical controller, just one that has an identical line protocol. In this case it's a USB HID Device that prescribes to the XInput Hardware API. Logitech, Razer, and others already make compatible devices.
- rhino369 9y ago
  As long as the military doesn't buy them on Amazon.com, yea they probably would. Escrow of technical and IP documents is pretty common in industry procurement, I'd imagine that it's even more common in procurement for defense.
- path411 9y ago
  Dude, it's Microsoft. Most of their business is to the government.

GunlogAlm 9y ago

I personally doubt that scarcity will be too big an issue with Xbox 360 controllers for the foreseeable future — development of new 360 hardware only ended in April last year. I can think of no piece of consumer electronics cheaper to source and repair than the 360 controller. I'm sure, though, that both 1. and 2. are concerns the US Navy will have given ample consideration before making this move.

ngz00 9y ago
can you fix my controller? last I checked they were like $60
- GunlogAlm 9y ago
  You can buy 360 controllers for £25 ($33) new here in the UK.
rmc 9y ago
The SNES came out 27 years ago. Can you still get controllers for it? (Imagine if current submarines were using SNES controllers... )
- chuckdries 9y ago
  Did the SNES controller become a de facto standard? Because the xbox 360 controller is one. There are plenty of xinput compatible gamepads from different manufacturers, the largest right now is Logitech. Xinput became pervasive because of PC gaming, it had really good support within windows, and support has been implemented now in Linux and directly in Chrome and Firefox. It's also really popular in the robotics world for exactly the reasons the navy outlined, a group I worked with used 3rd party xbox controllers almost exclusively. The tooling support is there as well, labview has built in xbox 360 controller support, and idk about other competing software but it probably does as well.
- foldr 9y ago
  Yes, very easily and cheaply: https://www.amazon.co.uk/TRIXES-Retro-Replacement-Controller-Gamepad/dp/B01MXRQW5F/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_107_lp_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=S951N70ESJ5DJ0Y6HX7B https://www.amazon.co.uk/TRIXES-Retro-Replacement-Controller...

c0m0 9y ago

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

mysterydip 9y ago
"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.
- skj 9y ago
  Next to the cost of a submarine I believe "excess stock" inefficiencies will be unnoticeable. Probably compared to the cost of custom hardware, too.
  - mysterydip 9y ago
    The issue is there's a difference between where the money comes from (capex vs opex for a simplified and incorrect example). Your support areas don't get the same budget as your construction areas. And when money runs out for the year you still have to keep thinngs running. And while I agree that excess stock costs pale in comparison to a sub or boat, multiply that by every part necessary to keep one operational, and then face all the people every year who say the defense budget needs cut.
- BartSaM 9y ago
  There is hardly a thing, like a wasted hardware in the military. For such a purchase you do not make a guess and buy. You make a guess, multiply it by 3 and then buy. Cost saved by going for customer grade electronics vs. specialized will easily justify this. You will still be saving lots of money.

chuckdries 9y ago

The xinput gamepad is a pervasive standard, with plenty of third party hardware implementations and wide software support across operating systems. Heck, even Chrome and Firefox have JS apis to access xbox controller input. Eventually it will be surpassed, but it's far more available and supported than whatever they were doing before, and its simple enough to be easy to continue to manufacture. Also, do we really think the military couldn't find someone to contract with to continue making them if they needed to? Knock offs are $20 on Amazon, they're very simple devices.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago
> Knock offs are $20 on Amazon, they're very simple devices. And that goes right into cstross' second point...
- Sebguer 9y ago
  Their point was very obviously not that we should buy the $20 knock-offs, but that building these devices is very simple and can be done cheaply.

jasonmaydie 9y ago

first concern doesn't seem like a big issue, this is a standard usb connector controller not a custom built device so it should be easy to replace. second concern should be taken seriously however.

LibertyBeta 9y ago

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harden it then we have a lot of other options, up to and including a bespoke controller. I guess what I'm saying is that video game controls are so much fun for a reason. They 'just work'. And while there is a little bit of dystopian sheen to seeing video games become the source for defacto tooling for war machines I'm always for a simplification of man/machine interactions.

kbutler 9y ago
Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? > video game controls are so much fun for a reason I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse.
- mipmap04 9y ago
  Even if you spend a ton of time and money hardening it, if the xbox-like game controller is more efficient and easier to train on, then you save there in training costs and improved operational effectiveness. This of course relies on an assumption that the current method of control is overly complicated and difficult.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  > Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? This is the worst-case scenario for what is a rather overblown concern in the first place. > I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse. Even when operating a submarine?
  - C0DEHERO 9y ago
    > Even when operating a submarine? Exactly, use the correct controller for the correct scenario. Keyboard+mouse works for many games, but for games where you control vehicles (racing games, aircraft simulators, submarines), joystick controls just work better. Also, let's not forget that Microsoft would probably help out with hardening the security of the controllers. It's not like the Navy would have to reverse engineer the controller to figure out how to make it more secure.

christophilus 9y ago

To your second point, these things are manifactured in China. What's to prevent them from adding tracking devices or backdoors to these if they realize they're going into US military ships?

mabbo 9y ago
How do you know which ones are headed for a submarine? The military could literally just pick a BestBuy and go pick up a dozen controllers whenever they're at a port. The manufacturers in China would have to put backdoors into all of them, which would be noticed pretty quickly, and the gain is what? They can control the periscope direction? That would be noticed immediately too. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it sounds more like a plot device for a "set your brain on the seat beside you" action movie.
DiThi 9y ago
Both points are already solved if they have already bought a lifetime supply of controllers, which as a sibling comment says, it's not far fetched.