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Agreed. Gah... it's such a mess. I totally get the argument that the drug war is insane---it creates a black market, fuels organized crime, puts harmless folk

Agreed. Gah... it's such a mess. I totally get the argument that the drug war is insane---it creates a black market, fuels organized crime, puts harmless folks in jails, unfairly targets minorities, and so on. And I generally agree that people should be able to do what they want to their own selves. And yet, drugs are clearly bad, and I fear that legalizing them is a hugely normalizing move. I do like to drink, but it's clear that alcohol is absolutely everywhere in the US and that this causes huge collateral damage. Yes, it's absolutely possible to drink occasionally, and responsibly, and have a great time, and what's not to like? But people still very frequently kill each other by driving drunk, or they drink themselves to death and leave their families to deal with the mess, or they use alcohol as a tool for rape, or they simply drink more than they should, and more frequently, to the detriment of their health, careers, marriages, and general potential. It's generally expected and accepted that it is normal for high-school kids to be drinking, and maybe this seems OK to some folks, and maybe nothing can be done for it, but it bugs the hell out of me, because I have kids, and because, from my own personal experience, the line between recreation and dependence is very thin, indeed. Legal or not, pot is implicitly and increasingly acceptable almost everywhere. I hear that more than half of US adults have tried it. And I have friends, with little kids, who regularly use it and keep it in their homes. They provide excuses about why they need it and explanations of what it does for them. As an outsider, it seems like total and complete bullshit, and I don't want any part of it. Fortunately I'm old and stubborn enough to set my own, clear boundaries. But my kids are a lot younger than me, and not so inflexible. I very much don't want them to be pressured into alcohol and pot and all the rest when they are so young. I'll teach them as best I can, and they'll decide to do what they will. But as drug use becomes more normal, acceptable, and pervasive, I fear we'll inevitably see a lot more folks (especially kids) being pulled into it, and I think that will cause a lot of damage. Of course, hopefully I'm wrong.

kelnos 9y ago
> And yet, drugs are clearly bad No, they aren't. There's a spectrum. Some are bad all the time, some are bad if they're abused. And I'd like to look at it the other way: some are great if not abused. Are we going to continue throw that away because abuse is possible? > They provide excuses about why they need it and explanations of what it does for them. As an outsider, it seems like total and complete bullshit, and I don't want any part of it. That is of course your choice, and I have a ton of respect for you for setting your own boundaries and sticking to them, as so many people have trouble doing that (myself included, sometimes!). But at the same time, I and others have different boundaries, and people like you need to stop trying to legislate what those "must" be. I'm sick of people being told how to live their lives, especially in cases where doing so doesn't harm others. But guess what: sometimes people will harm others, and so you deal with that. Assault is already illegal, whether you're high or not. Maybe penalties for assault should be higher if under the influence of a drug, but that in no way means the drug itself must be made illegal. I saw a cited stat in this thread somewhere that 1.1M people in the US were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol in a recent year. That seems like a lot until you read that 111M people admitted to driving under the influence, whether they were caught or not. I'm not sure what percentage of the 1.1M arrested hurt or killed someone, but even if it was every single one, that's still less than 1% of the total. Also not sure how many of those 111M hurt anyone, but one can expect that to be a pretty small number since alcohol-related car crashes don't often go unnoticed by the police. So it's not even true that people who drive drunk hurt people even a decent percent of the time, let alone a majority. I'm certainly not in favor of legalizing drunk driving, but it's a fine example of how hysteria and fear campaigns make problems seem much larger than they are. I think that's a fine example: alcohol itself isn't illegal, but if you do certain potentially-harmful things while under the influence of it, penalties are higher. Assuming humanity survives another 100 years, my guess is our current attitude toward drugs will be one of those things that our future counterparts will find crazy, and shake their heads ruefully at those silly primitive past humans.

kelnos 9y ago

> And yet, drugs are clearly bad No, they aren't. There's a spectrum. Some are bad all the time, some are bad if they're abused. And I'd like to look at it the other way: some are great if not abused. Are we going to continue throw that away because abuse is possible? > They provide excuses about why they need it and explanations of what it does for them. As an outsider, it seems like total and complete bullshit, and I don't want any part of it. That is of course your choice, and I have a ton of respect for you for setting your own boundaries and sticking to them, as so many people have trouble doing that (myself included, sometimes!). But at the same time, I and others have different boundaries, and people like you need to stop trying to legislate what those "must" be. I'm sick of people being told how to live their lives, especially in cases where doing so doesn't harm others. But guess what: sometimes people will harm others, and so you deal with that. Assault is already illegal, whether you're high or not. Maybe penalties for assault should be higher if under the influence of a drug, but that in no way means the drug itself must be made illegal. I saw a cited stat in this thread somewhere that 1.1M people in the US were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol in a recent year. That seems like a lot until you read that 111M people admitted to driving under the influence, whether they were caught or not. I'm not sure what percentage of the 1.1M arrested hurt or killed someone, but even if it was every single one, that's still less than 1% of the total. Also not sure how many of those 111M hurt anyone, but one can expect that to be a pretty small number since alcohol-related car crashes don't often go unnoticed by the police. So it's not even true that people who drive drunk hurt people even a decent percent of the time, let alone a majority. I'm certainly not in favor of legalizing drunk driving, but it's a fine example of how hysteria and fear campaigns make problems seem much larger than they are. I think that's a fine example: alcohol itself isn't illegal, but if you do certain potentially-harmful things while under the influence of it, penalties are higher. Assuming humanity survives another 100 years, my guess is our current attitude toward drugs will be one of those things that our future counterparts will find crazy, and shake their heads ruefully at those silly primitive past humans.