6 ms·

Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing + performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain with militar

Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing + performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain with military markup at each level, I suspect those "XBox controllers" cost closer to $30k than $30.

microcolonel 9y ago
Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wafer capacity of U.S-headquartered semiconductor manufacturing companies is in the U.S. It is perfectly reasonable to expect Microsoft to be able to manufacture their own IC design in the country with the single greatest semiconductor manufacturing industry in the world. Edit: here's a (low res) image of the wired controller. It too seems to have only one complex IC, and that too seems to have Microsoft markings on it[1]. [0]: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.h... [1]: https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4BEV2Z5NA5.MEDIUM.jpg https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4...
- 0xbear 9y ago
  You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be stunned if in the end this ends up being cheaper than just manufacturing the designs that already exist.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Wouldn't they contract Microsoft to do it, since it's their own design? Even by DoD standards, Microsoft is not a "startup". I know that there are 360 controllers used in the field already (not sure about Navy). Even if they have different standards, what you're describing probably couldn't be done anyway; the periscope controller company is probably not equipped to do the beautiful consumer goods injection moldings and precision joystick assembly (and calibration). If they tried to do this, it would likely end up costing more, and as diabolical as I think the military procurement contracting process is, I don't think they would do this specific thing unless it saved money or appeared to save money. What exactly is stopping them from working with Microsoft (who they already contract with all the time!); at most having a U.S. PCB run, and a U.S. IC tapeout (IBM, Intel, ...), and calling it a day?
    - 0xbear 9y ago
      The periscope company will just CNC it out of a solid block of titanium then. Microsoft wouldn’t want their business. It’s a relatively small amount of money for very large amount of pain in the rear. And even if they did want DoDs business, DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly, instead they’d subcontract them through one of those giant contracting companies with “Federal” in their name.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        > DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly Why wouldn't they deal with them directly? They already do! I understand being cynical, but you have to admit you're making a satire of this system, no matter how ridiculous it is in reality.
        0xbear 9y ago
        I’m not being cynical, I’m speaking from direct experience. Satire, as it turns out, is not quite as inventive as government bureaucrats.
- rasz 9y ago
  Microsoft doesnt manufacture those microcontrollers, they are off the shelf Microchip/Infineon parts.
  - chuckdries 9y ago
    Also there are a LOT of third party xbox controllers out there - I'm sure they don't mind if it's an official controller or not.
    - rasz 9y ago
      oh they(if you meant Microsof&Xbox) do mind, infineon chip does TPM, third party controllers are either legit licensed, or reverse engineered https://oct0xor.github.io/2017/05/03/xsm3/ https://oct0xor.github.io/2017/05/03/xsm3/

microcolonel 9y ago

Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wafer capacity of U.S-headquartered semiconductor manufacturing companies is in the U.S. It is perfectly reasonable to expect Microsoft to be able to manufacture their own IC design in the country with the single greatest semiconductor manufacturing industry in the world. Edit: here's a (low res) image of the wired controller. It too seems to have only one complex IC, and that too seems to have Microsoft markings on it[1]. [0]: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.h... [1]: https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4BEV2Z5NA5.MEDIUM.jpg https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4...

0xbear 9y ago
You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be stunned if in the end this ends up being cheaper than just manufacturing the designs that already exist.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Wouldn't they contract Microsoft to do it, since it's their own design? Even by DoD standards, Microsoft is not a "startup". I know that there are 360 controllers used in the field already (not sure about Navy). Even if they have different standards, what you're describing probably couldn't be done anyway; the periscope controller company is probably not equipped to do the beautiful consumer goods injection moldings and precision joystick assembly (and calibration). If they tried to do this, it would likely end up costing more, and as diabolical as I think the military procurement contracting process is, I don't think they would do this specific thing unless it saved money or appeared to save money. What exactly is stopping them from working with Microsoft (who they already contract with all the time!); at most having a U.S. PCB run, and a U.S. IC tapeout (IBM, Intel, ...), and calling it a day?
  - 0xbear 9y ago
    The periscope company will just CNC it out of a solid block of titanium then. Microsoft wouldn’t want their business. It’s a relatively small amount of money for very large amount of pain in the rear. And even if they did want DoDs business, DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly, instead they’d subcontract them through one of those giant contracting companies with “Federal” in their name.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      > DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly Why wouldn't they deal with them directly? They already do! I understand being cynical, but you have to admit you're making a satire of this system, no matter how ridiculous it is in reality.
      - 0xbear 9y ago
        I’m not being cynical, I’m speaking from direct experience. Satire, as it turns out, is not quite as inventive as government bureaucrats.
rasz 9y ago
Microsoft doesnt manufacture those microcontrollers, they are off the shelf Microchip/Infineon parts.
- chuckdries 9y ago
  Also there are a LOT of third party xbox controllers out there - I'm sure they don't mind if it's an official controller or not.
  - rasz 9y ago
    oh they(if you meant Microsof&Xbox) do mind, infineon chip does TPM, third party controllers are either legit licensed, or reverse engineered https://oct0xor.github.io/2017/05/03/xsm3/ https://oct0xor.github.io/2017/05/03/xsm3/