5 ms·

This is one of those simple ideas that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad to hear there are teams working to reduce costs and improve UX for the military. Microsof

This is one of those simple ideas that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad to hear there are teams working to reduce costs and improve UX for the military. Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller, but they must have been optimizing for a certain consumer price point as well. It makes me wonder what sort of controller you would have if they spent all that focus on usability, but with the same $38,000 price tag the periscope control panel commands.

nikcub 9y ago
Theres an entire market for high-end gaming controllers, from both Microsoft[0] and other manufacturers[1][2]. I had a chance to try out the Elite - they feel great, very solid build. The requirements for gamers might be a bit diff to what a submariner would require - but I could imagine the Navy would prefer the sturdiness of these high end controllers and that gamers prefer wired and low-latency. [0] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/controllers/elite-wireless-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/controllers/... [1] https://scufgaming.com/s/xboxone/ https://scufgaming.com/s/xboxone/ [2] https://www2.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-controllers/razer-wildcat-xbox-one https://www2.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-controllers/razer-wi...
- gambiting 9y ago
  The weak point of the elite controller(and I do have one) is the micro-usb port. I imagine it's completely unacceptable on a submarine that you suddenly lose control of the periscope because the cable is a bit dodgy and doesn't sit in the port properly. Wired X360 controllers have a major advantage here. Also if you drop the Elite controller the dpad and the analog sticks will fly in all directions because they are held by magnets.
  - mxfh 9y ago
    What stops anyone from soldering (the USB) and/or hot-glueing those parts on? The tradeoff between customizability and ruggedness is quite easy to fix. In my experience the buttons most likely to break are the LB and RB shoulder ones, since if the controller falls it might take out the switch on direct impact with it's full weight.
    - gambiting 9y ago
      Well, nothing, but my guess is that it needs to work straight out of the box for military use, you can't be hot-gluing buttons and cables on equipment that's used on a submarine.
      - amigoingtodie 9y ago
        Thank you.
      - mxfh 9y ago
        Why not? Have a professional supplier handle the mods to mil-spec and you have a mil-grade product. If it fits the requirements you shouldn't just rule out something just because it sounds DIY. The process might double the price, but still cheaper than anything custom ordered. Glue is a perfectly acceptable solution if done right. Plastic welding is also an option.
jjoonathan 9y ago
Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing + performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain with military markup at each level, I suspect those "XBox controllers" cost closer to $30k than $30.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wafer capacity of U.S-headquartered semiconductor manufacturing companies is in the U.S. It is perfectly reasonable to expect Microsoft to be able to manufacture their own IC design in the country with the single greatest semiconductor manufacturing industry in the world. Edit: here's a (low res) image of the wired controller. It too seems to have only one complex IC, and that too seems to have Microsoft markings on it[1]. [0]: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.h... [1]: https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4BEV2Z5NA5.MEDIUM.jpg https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4...
  - 0xbear 9y ago
    You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be stunned if in the end this ends up being cheaper than just manufacturing the designs that already exist.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      > First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Wouldn't they contract Microsoft to do it, since it's their own design? Even by DoD standards, Microsoft is not a "startup". I know that there are 360 controllers used in the field already (not sure about Navy). Even if they have different standards, what you're describing probably couldn't be done anyway; the periscope controller company is probably not equipped to do the beautiful consumer goods injection moldings and precision joystick assembly (and calibration). If they tried to do this, it would likely end up costing more, and as diabolical as I think the military procurement contracting process is, I don't think they would do this specific thing unless it saved money or appeared to save money. What exactly is stopping them from working with Microsoft (who they already contract with all the time!); at most having a U.S. PCB run, and a U.S. IC tapeout (IBM, Intel, ...), and calling it a day?
DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
> Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller Precisely. Remember the "Duke" controller?

nikcub 9y ago

Theres an entire market for high-end gaming controllers, from both Microsoft[0] and other manufacturers[1][2]. I had a chance to try out the Elite - they feel great, very solid build. The requirements for gamers might be a bit diff to what a submariner would require - but I could imagine the Navy would prefer the sturdiness of these high end controllers and that gamers prefer wired and low-latency. [0] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/controllers/elite-wireless-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/controllers/... [1] https://scufgaming.com/s/xboxone/ https://scufgaming.com/s/xboxone/ [2] https://www2.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-controllers/razer-wildcat-xbox-one https://www2.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-controllers/razer-wi...

gambiting 9y ago
The weak point of the elite controller(and I do have one) is the micro-usb port. I imagine it's completely unacceptable on a submarine that you suddenly lose control of the periscope because the cable is a bit dodgy and doesn't sit in the port properly. Wired X360 controllers have a major advantage here. Also if you drop the Elite controller the dpad and the analog sticks will fly in all directions because they are held by magnets.
- mxfh 9y ago
  What stops anyone from soldering (the USB) and/or hot-glueing those parts on? The tradeoff between customizability and ruggedness is quite easy to fix. In my experience the buttons most likely to break are the LB and RB shoulder ones, since if the controller falls it might take out the switch on direct impact with it's full weight.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Well, nothing, but my guess is that it needs to work straight out of the box for military use, you can't be hot-gluing buttons and cables on equipment that's used on a submarine.
    - amigoingtodie 9y ago
      Thank you.
    - mxfh 9y ago
      Why not? Have a professional supplier handle the mods to mil-spec and you have a mil-grade product. If it fits the requirements you shouldn't just rule out something just because it sounds DIY. The process might double the price, but still cheaper than anything custom ordered. Glue is a perfectly acceptable solution if done right. Plastic welding is also an option.

jjoonathan 9y ago

Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing + performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain with military markup at each level, I suspect those "XBox controllers" cost closer to $30k than $30.

microcolonel 9y ago
Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wafer capacity of U.S-headquartered semiconductor manufacturing companies is in the U.S. It is perfectly reasonable to expect Microsoft to be able to manufacture their own IC design in the country with the single greatest semiconductor manufacturing industry in the world. Edit: here's a (low res) image of the wired controller. It too seems to have only one complex IC, and that too seems to have Microsoft markings on it[1]. [0]: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.h... [1]: https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4BEV2Z5NA5.MEDIUM.jpg https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4...
- 0xbear 9y ago
  You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be stunned if in the end this ends up being cheaper than just manufacturing the designs that already exist.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Wouldn't they contract Microsoft to do it, since it's their own design? Even by DoD standards, Microsoft is not a "startup". I know that there are 360 controllers used in the field already (not sure about Navy). Even if they have different standards, what you're describing probably couldn't be done anyway; the periscope controller company is probably not equipped to do the beautiful consumer goods injection moldings and precision joystick assembly (and calibration). If they tried to do this, it would likely end up costing more, and as diabolical as I think the military procurement contracting process is, I don't think they would do this specific thing unless it saved money or appeared to save money. What exactly is stopping them from working with Microsoft (who they already contract with all the time!); at most having a U.S. PCB run, and a U.S. IC tapeout (IBM, Intel, ...), and calling it a day?

DaiPlusPlus 9y ago

> Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller Precisely. Remember the "Duke" controller?