5 ms·

While some searching might clear it up, the fact that the article doesn't even mention which type of MS they are talking about is a little vexing.

by vvpan 9y ago

dmix 9y ago
Can you expand on this for people not familiar with the types of MS that might exist? I have an aunt with MS and got excited by this article, but still wasn't aware that it might be limited to a subset?
- nickpinkston 9y ago
  Apparently there are multiple multiple scleroses.
  - nso 9y ago
    Basicly just different severities. Afaik no clear indications that they have different causes, so I don't understand the reason for OPs objection. I would assume their results are spanning all types, or it would have been spesifically mentioned. Most research seems to be done on the more severe type, tho. > They put Acinetobacter and Akkermansia bacteria into samples of healthy blood. The microbes increased the kind of cells that activate immune attack (they’re called T helper cells) and decreased the kind (regulatory T cells) that suppress excessive immune responses, including autoimmune attacks as in MS. As far as I understand the article it seems like they have replicated the effect MS has on the T-cells, and that is not subtype spesific. If they could inhibit this effect it would be a fix across all subtypes, even if it doesn't fix the underlying problem.
- alfon 9y ago
  You might also want to have her CSF independently tested for nematode worms. (what I mean by this is to put it under a microscope). it surely won't hurt, as some pathologists (although not published yet in the medical literature AFAIK) are finding them in all the samples they have tested for. More information: https://youtu.be/aTPU87CKQLQ?t=6m30s https://youtu.be/aTPU87CKQLQ?t=6m30s If this proves to be the case for your aunt, the good news is that anti-helmintics like Ivermectin, could efficiently treat the underlying cause. You also might benefit from performing Metagenomic tests ( such as Digital Culture by Karius - kariusdx.com) to look for insidious pathogens that might play a role in her illness. In other words, there are many different things that might cause the symptomatology described as "Multiple Sclerosis", Lyme disease actually being one of them, https://youtu.be/Fy0ViOX7xNk?t=9m37s https://youtu.be/Fy0ViOX7xNk?t=9m37s
  - rocqua 9y ago
    I looked into both of those researchers. I could find nothing published by them with regards to MS. They do both seem to have published on Lyme disease. Can you provide any published research to back those youtube videos? Maybe I'm wrong here, but this feels like giving medical advice based on very little hard evidence. Considering I have a loved one with MS, I find such advice sickening. You see this with many terminal diseases. Terminal disease is a fucking terrible thing. It makes people desperate in every sense of the word, it makes them grasp at anything. Flippantly mentioning a few things that 'might help' is basically saying. "Hey, here's a thing that maybe means you won't die / suffer as much from dying". Making such claims lightly is (excuse my language) being a fucking asshole. You are getting someone's hope up, only for that hope, and a little piece of that person with them, to be smashed to pieces when it turns out to be wrong. Moreover, you are telling that person "don't accept your fate, here try this". Acceptance is needed for a healthy way to process terminal disease. 'Advice' like this fucks with that in a big way. Don't overestimate your own chances of being success at the expense of a dying person please. (I know, harsh words. But I needed to get this off my chest)
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      I think there's an imprecision problem here with the language. What people might mean by "could help" ranges from "A miracle cure overnight" to "3% improvement in perceived severity of one symptom" I hope that people will avoid the former and view the latter in context - i.e. a genuine wish to relieve their suffering for a while, rather than a flat denial of the reality of the disease. I don't think either is especially appropriate, but the latter is misguided rather than malicious.
    - alfon 9y ago
      I, myself, was diagnosed with RR Multiple Sclerosis, with multiple dem. lesions in both brain and spinal cord, ON, delayed evoked potentials, 4 years ago. Completely reversed the condition with long term antibiotics and anti-helmintics, no evidence of MS currently. So my advice might be biased, sorry. As I said, there is no harm in examining this perspective. I didn't advocate for treatment, but for testing.
- refurb 9y ago
  Primary progressive MS (PPMS), Relapsing-remitting MS (RRMS), etc.
- vvpan 9y ago
  So, the more precise description of different types you could read about, say, on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sclerosis#Types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sclerosis#Types. To describe it briefly, though - there are different types, some appear later in life some earlier, some show up sporadically, while some are constant and get progressively worse. The issue is that, from what I know, there is nobody who can even tell if they are the same pathology, just that they have some similar symptoms.
  - dmix 9y ago
    > The issue is that, from what I know, there is nobody who can even tell if they are the same pathology, just that they have some similar symptoms. I have an auto-immune disease (ulcerative colitis) and the situation is the same for me. Doctors always tell me they can never be entirely sure that's what it is. But I'm sure there are plenty of diagnosis are generalizations about symptoms rather than root cause. We simply don't know what causes plenty of diseases. Side-note: given that my aunt has MS while me and multiple of my other aunts have an IBD (irritable bowel diseases: chrohns, colitis) on one side of the family, there seems to be a connection between UC and MS as both are auto-immune related: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17894769 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17894769

While some searching might clear it up, the fact that the article doesn't even mention which type of MS they are talking about is a little vexing.

by vvpan 9y ago

While some searching might clear it up, the fact that the article doesn't even mention which type of MS they are talking about is a little vexing.

dmix 9y ago

Can you expand on this for people not familiar with the types of MS that might exist? I have an aunt with MS and got excited by this article, but still wasn't aware that it might be limited to a subset?

nickpinkston 9y ago
Apparently there are multiple multiple scleroses.
- nso 9y ago
  Basicly just different severities. Afaik no clear indications that they have different causes, so I don't understand the reason for OPs objection. I would assume their results are spanning all types, or it would have been spesifically mentioned. Most research seems to be done on the more severe type, tho. > They put Acinetobacter and Akkermansia bacteria into samples of healthy blood. The microbes increased the kind of cells that activate immune attack (they’re called T helper cells) and decreased the kind (regulatory T cells) that suppress excessive immune responses, including autoimmune attacks as in MS. As far as I understand the article it seems like they have replicated the effect MS has on the T-cells, and that is not subtype spesific. If they could inhibit this effect it would be a fix across all subtypes, even if it doesn't fix the underlying problem.
alfon 9y ago
You might also want to have her CSF independently tested for nematode worms. (what I mean by this is to put it under a microscope). it surely won't hurt, as some pathologists (although not published yet in the medical literature AFAIK) are finding them in all the samples they have tested for. More information: https://youtu.be/aTPU87CKQLQ?t=6m30s https://youtu.be/aTPU87CKQLQ?t=6m30s If this proves to be the case for your aunt, the good news is that anti-helmintics like Ivermectin, could efficiently treat the underlying cause. You also might benefit from performing Metagenomic tests ( such as Digital Culture by Karius - kariusdx.com) to look for insidious pathogens that might play a role in her illness. In other words, there are many different things that might cause the symptomatology described as "Multiple Sclerosis", Lyme disease actually being one of them, https://youtu.be/Fy0ViOX7xNk?t=9m37s https://youtu.be/Fy0ViOX7xNk?t=9m37s
- rocqua 9y ago
  I looked into both of those researchers. I could find nothing published by them with regards to MS. They do both seem to have published on Lyme disease. Can you provide any published research to back those youtube videos? Maybe I'm wrong here, but this feels like giving medical advice based on very little hard evidence. Considering I have a loved one with MS, I find such advice sickening. You see this with many terminal diseases. Terminal disease is a fucking terrible thing. It makes people desperate in every sense of the word, it makes them grasp at anything. Flippantly mentioning a few things that 'might help' is basically saying. "Hey, here's a thing that maybe means you won't die / suffer as much from dying". Making such claims lightly is (excuse my language) being a fucking asshole. You are getting someone's hope up, only for that hope, and a little piece of that person with them, to be smashed to pieces when it turns out to be wrong. Moreover, you are telling that person "don't accept your fate, here try this". Acceptance is needed for a healthy way to process terminal disease. 'Advice' like this fucks with that in a big way. Don't overestimate your own chances of being success at the expense of a dying person please. (I know, harsh words. But I needed to get this off my chest)
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    I think there's an imprecision problem here with the language. What people might mean by "could help" ranges from "A miracle cure overnight" to "3% improvement in perceived severity of one symptom" I hope that people will avoid the former and view the latter in context - i.e. a genuine wish to relieve their suffering for a while, rather than a flat denial of the reality of the disease. I don't think either is especially appropriate, but the latter is misguided rather than malicious.
  - alfon 9y ago
    I, myself, was diagnosed with RR Multiple Sclerosis, with multiple dem. lesions in both brain and spinal cord, ON, delayed evoked potentials, 4 years ago. Completely reversed the condition with long term antibiotics and anti-helmintics, no evidence of MS currently. So my advice might be biased, sorry. As I said, there is no harm in examining this perspective. I didn't advocate for treatment, but for testing.
refurb 9y ago
Primary progressive MS (PPMS), Relapsing-remitting MS (RRMS), etc.
vvpan 9y ago
So, the more precise description of different types you could read about, say, on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sclerosis#Types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sclerosis#Types. To describe it briefly, though - there are different types, some appear later in life some earlier, some show up sporadically, while some are constant and get progressively worse. The issue is that, from what I know, there is nobody who can even tell if they are the same pathology, just that they have some similar symptoms.
- dmix 9y ago
  > The issue is that, from what I know, there is nobody who can even tell if they are the same pathology, just that they have some similar symptoms. I have an auto-immune disease (ulcerative colitis) and the situation is the same for me. Doctors always tell me they can never be entirely sure that's what it is. But I'm sure there are plenty of diagnosis are generalizations about symptoms rather than root cause. We simply don't know what causes plenty of diseases. Side-note: given that my aunt has MS while me and multiple of my other aunts have an IBD (irritable bowel diseases: chrohns, colitis) on one side of the family, there seems to be a connection between UC and MS as both are auto-immune related: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17894769 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17894769