6 ms·

I would suggest not underestimating Mozilla's market influence. It would be possible to create a browser that displays DRM content and ignores DRM. The only th

I would suggest not underestimating Mozilla's market influence. It would be possible to create a browser that displays DRM content and ignores DRM. The only thing that content publishers could do is ban that browser. And then it would adapt to disguise itself as other browsers. DRM on the web can only happen if all of the major players (that is, browser publishers) agree to play along. I am very excited about this news, this is probably the most important news in weeks, and could impact the Internet for years to come.

jandrese 9y ago
Wouldn't publishers just refuse to distribute keys to said browser?
- wyager 9y ago
  You build a plugin framework that lets users pirate keys without exposing the author to excessive DMCA risk.
  - jandrese 9y ago
    I think the author of such a plugin would be at considerable legal risk.
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      That sounds like a strong case for anonymous authorship.
    - noir_lord 9y ago
      If they where in the US.
      - DCKing 9y ago
        Lots of this stuff is so US focused. Any European nation for one will let you reverse engineer stuff you buy or download to your own heart's content in the safety of your own home. I expect many countries in the world are civilized like that.
        dannyobrien 9y ago
        Almost every country, with the exception of Israel, has implemented the anti-DRM provisions of the WIPO Copyright Treaty using similar language to the United States, or worse. In the European countries, it's embodied in the European Copyright Directive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technological_protection_measures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technologi... That's one of the reason why we argued so strongly that the W3C should include a covenant. Even if EFF continues to successfully obtain temporary exemptions from the DMCA in the tri-annual review, we can't do that for security researchers or lobby for similar fair use exemptions in every country.
        DCKing 9y ago
        You're right. I've done some digging, and some similar language has been implemented at least in the Netherlands (for the Dutch, this is article 29a of our Auteurswet). Although it's somewhat vague, it does bum me out. It seems the Dutch implementation has not been enforced all that often (mostly to combat game console mod chips), but it has been used to fight security researchers publishing stuff on security weaknesses in our public transport RFID cards... Thought we were better than that.
        noir_lord 9y ago
        It's a terrain, some points are higher than others. Not convinced any country isn't underwater though.
        versteegen 9y ago
        New Zealand isn't a party to that WIPO treaties [1], but it does have a law implementing restrictions on circumventing Technological protection measures (TPM) [2]. But unlike the DMCA, the NZ law lists lots of exceptions that allow you to circumvent TPMs. In fact it says "Nothing in this Act prevents any person from using a TPM circumvention device to exercise a permitted act under Part 3." Part 3 of the Copyright 1994 [3] is the (very long) part that lists everything you can do with a copyrighted work, including the NZ equivalent of fair use, research, education, archiving, backup, decompiling software, etc, etc. [1] http://www.copyright.org.nz/international.php http://www.copyright.org.nz/international.php [2] http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2008/0027/latest/DLM1122722.html http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2008/0027/latest/D... [3] http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1994/0143/latest/DLM345634.html#DLM345958 http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1994/0143/latest/D...
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > I think the author of such a plugin would be at considerable legal risk. If they are caught... ;-)
    - featherverse 9y ago
      So are all major piracy operations in existence today and yet most of them operate without any real penalties. Look at The Pirate Bay and Giganews, both of those have been operating under enormous "legal risk" for over a decade. Piracy is never going away and this re-run of corporations trying to control content created by people (corporations are not people) will fail the same way that every single previous effort has failed. Piracy will outlive the old fools pushing for these programs. I'm not saying piracy is the answer, but once these troublesome corporate fools have all died sanity will return to the market and piracy will be replaced by pro-consumer models.
idbehold 9y ago
So hopefully Firefox will simply display DRM content and ignore any restriction DRM imposes.
- Crespyl 9y ago
  EME plugins will use whatever user-hostile platform-specific opaque techniques necessary to communicate with the host OS in their attempt to ensure compliance. If the browser interferes with them, or the OS can't promise a "secure" chain from plugin-output > display, they can just refuse to stream the content. You can bet EME plugins will be highly platform specific, and poorly supported, if at all, on platforms that respect their users.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Firefox will heavily sandbox their EME plugins. They get no direct access to the host OS.
    - Crespyl 9y ago
      Anyone taking bets on how long it will be before CDMs start requiring extensions that allow access to platform Output Protection/HDCP mechanisms? If nothing else, the standard already allows for the CDM to access the network (albeit managed by the user-agent) which means, for example, it could ping Microsoft to ask about this particular Win10 computer (as identified by user agent, IP address, and/or user account data from the content provider). Netflix/Microsoft/Hollywood/etc. aren't going to stop until they can close the loop as much as possible, with MS and hardware manufacturers already working to tighten things from the other end (see HDCP and the various frameworks for "protected content" that MS has been working towards). Either providers will push to integrate those platform-level frameworks, or they'll just stop offering content to web browsers entirely.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Apple and Google also have platform-level frameworks on their OSes.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
AnssiH 9y ago
I don't believe this formal standardization will affect end-user web browser features. All major browsers (Firefox, Chrome, IE, Edge, Safari) have already included HTML EME DRM support for years, so it is a de-facto standard already.
objclxt 9y ago
> I would suggest not underestimating Mozilla's market influence. They have no market influence. They have maybe ~10% of the market globally (I've seen figures between 5-15%), and that's primarily desktop - which is decreasing daily. On mobile it's even worse (probably less than 1%). Any influence they have solely extends to the desktop, and that's not the primary way people are interacting with the internet nowadays.
- civilian 9y ago
  Market share isn't immutable! Market share changes based on capabilities. I dropped IE for FF when I got a basic understanding of computers, I dropped FF when it became clear it was a memory hog, and now I kind of toggle between Chrome and FF. I think that, with killer features like breaking out of DRM, the market share could change.
  - objclxt 9y ago
    > I think that, with killer features like breaking out of DRM, the market share could change. That's not a killer feature to the market: I bet 99/100 people don't know what DRM is or what it stands for. They just care that they can watch videos or not. For better or the worse the overwhelming majority of browser users don't know, care, or have any idea about how the internet is standardized, how DRM works, and why it matters to them.
    - xvilka 9y ago
      Of course for the worse. As usual worst things in the world come with a silent agreement of majority.
      - hyperdunc 9y ago
        Ignorance != agreement
    - baddox 9y ago
      I actually don't see how using the browser would provide any practical value. If you pay for a streaming service you might as well just watch the legit DRM'd version. If you're watching a pirate stream you might as well stream from a pirate who cracked the DRM on their side.
btown 9y ago
> displays DRM content and ignores DRM Nothing says "attempting to survive as a legitimate corporate entity" like "let's flagrantly violate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performances_and_Phonograms_Treaties_Implementation_Act#Section_103 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performance... ..."
- mirimir 9y ago
  Who needs to "survive as a legitimate corporate entity"? All you need is to publish a browser. And basic browsers aren't that hard. Just be anonymous. Edit: If oligarchs create unworkable rules, why not create a new game?
admax88q 9y ago
> It would be possible to create a browser that displays DRM content and ignores DRM. The DMCA makes this illegal. No browser vendor is going to take that risk. Maybe some anonymous developers will release a firefox fork or similar, but that's a big risk. Not to mention, most groups who pirate content tend to keep their methods secret and only release the content.
- rplnt 9y ago
  DMCA has no reach outside of USA.
  - zentiggr 9y ago
    Well, it didn't until TPP, and what's to stop more agreements pushed through closed channels to make it truly global?
  - Mindwipe 9y ago
    But multiple regional equivalents exist.
- featherverse 9y ago
  The only people who give a @!#$ about the DMCA are lawyers. It's going to be repealed eventually.

jandrese 9y ago

Wouldn't publishers just refuse to distribute keys to said browser?

wyager 9y ago
You build a plugin framework that lets users pirate keys without exposing the author to excessive DMCA risk.
- jandrese 9y ago
  I think the author of such a plugin would be at considerable legal risk.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    That sounds like a strong case for anonymous authorship.
  - noir_lord 9y ago
    If they where in the US.
    - DCKing 9y ago
      Lots of this stuff is so US focused. Any European nation for one will let you reverse engineer stuff you buy or download to your own heart's content in the safety of your own home. I expect many countries in the world are civilized like that.
      - dannyobrien 9y ago
        Almost every country, with the exception of Israel, has implemented the anti-DRM provisions of the WIPO Copyright Treaty using similar language to the United States, or worse. In the European countries, it's embodied in the European Copyright Directive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technological_protection_measures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technologi... That's one of the reason why we argued so strongly that the W3C should include a covenant. Even if EFF continues to successfully obtain temporary exemptions from the DMCA in the tri-annual review, we can't do that for security researchers or lobby for similar fair use exemptions in every country.
        DCKing 9y ago
        You're right. I've done some digging, and some similar language has been implemented at least in the Netherlands (for the Dutch, this is article 29a of our Auteurswet). Although it's somewhat vague, it does bum me out. It seems the Dutch implementation has not been enforced all that often (mostly to combat game console mod chips), but it has been used to fight security researchers publishing stuff on security weaknesses in our public transport RFID cards... Thought we were better than that.
        noir_lord 9y ago
        It's a terrain, some points are higher than others. Not convinced any country isn't underwater though.
        versteegen 9y ago
        New Zealand isn't a party to that WIPO treaties [1], but it does have a law implementing restrictions on circumventing Technological protection measures (TPM) [2]. But unlike the DMCA, the NZ law lists lots of exceptions that allow you to circumvent TPMs. In fact it says "Nothing in this Act prevents any person from using a TPM circumvention device to exercise a permitted act under Part 3." Part 3 of the Copyright 1994 [3] is the (very long) part that lists everything you can do with a copyrighted work, including the NZ equivalent of fair use, research, education, archiving, backup, decompiling software, etc, etc. [1] http://www.copyright.org.nz/international.php http://www.copyright.org.nz/international.php [2] http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2008/0027/latest/DLM1122722.html http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2008/0027/latest/D... [3] http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1994/0143/latest/DLM345634.html#DLM345958 http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1994/0143/latest/D...
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > I think the author of such a plugin would be at considerable legal risk. If they are caught... ;-)
  - featherverse 9y ago
    So are all major piracy operations in existence today and yet most of them operate without any real penalties. Look at The Pirate Bay and Giganews, both of those have been operating under enormous "legal risk" for over a decade. Piracy is never going away and this re-run of corporations trying to control content created by people (corporations are not people) will fail the same way that every single previous effort has failed. Piracy will outlive the old fools pushing for these programs. I'm not saying piracy is the answer, but once these troublesome corporate fools have all died sanity will return to the market and piracy will be replaced by pro-consumer models.

idbehold 9y ago

So hopefully Firefox will simply display DRM content and ignore any restriction DRM imposes.

Crespyl 9y ago
EME plugins will use whatever user-hostile platform-specific opaque techniques necessary to communicate with the host OS in their attempt to ensure compliance. If the browser interferes with them, or the OS can't promise a "secure" chain from plugin-output > display, they can just refuse to stream the content. You can bet EME plugins will be highly platform specific, and poorly supported, if at all, on platforms that respect their users.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Firefox will heavily sandbox their EME plugins. They get no direct access to the host OS.
  - Crespyl 9y ago
    Anyone taking bets on how long it will be before CDMs start requiring extensions that allow access to platform Output Protection/HDCP mechanisms? If nothing else, the standard already allows for the CDM to access the network (albeit managed by the user-agent) which means, for example, it could ping Microsoft to ask about this particular Win10 computer (as identified by user agent, IP address, and/or user account data from the content provider). Netflix/Microsoft/Hollywood/etc. aren't going to stop until they can close the loop as much as possible, with MS and hardware manufacturers already working to tighten things from the other end (see HDCP and the various frameworks for "protected content" that MS has been working towards). Either providers will push to integrate those platform-level frameworks, or they'll just stop offering content to web browsers entirely.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Apple and Google also have platform-level frameworks on their OSes.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

AnssiH 9y ago

I don't believe this formal standardization will affect end-user web browser features. All major browsers (Firefox, Chrome, IE, Edge, Safari) have already included HTML EME DRM support for years, so it is a de-facto standard already.

objclxt 9y ago

> I would suggest not underestimating Mozilla's market influence. They have no market influence. They have maybe ~10% of the market globally (I've seen figures between 5-15%), and that's primarily desktop - which is decreasing daily. On mobile it's even worse (probably less than 1%). Any influence they have solely extends to the desktop, and that's not the primary way people are interacting with the internet nowadays.

civilian 9y ago
Market share isn't immutable! Market share changes based on capabilities. I dropped IE for FF when I got a basic understanding of computers, I dropped FF when it became clear it was a memory hog, and now I kind of toggle between Chrome and FF. I think that, with killer features like breaking out of DRM, the market share could change.
- objclxt 9y ago
  > I think that, with killer features like breaking out of DRM, the market share could change. That's not a killer feature to the market: I bet 99/100 people don't know what DRM is or what it stands for. They just care that they can watch videos or not. For better or the worse the overwhelming majority of browser users don't know, care, or have any idea about how the internet is standardized, how DRM works, and why it matters to them.
  - xvilka 9y ago
    Of course for the worse. As usual worst things in the world come with a silent agreement of majority.
    - hyperdunc 9y ago
      Ignorance != agreement
  - baddox 9y ago
    I actually don't see how using the browser would provide any practical value. If you pay for a streaming service you might as well just watch the legit DRM'd version. If you're watching a pirate stream you might as well stream from a pirate who cracked the DRM on their side.

btown 9y ago

> displays DRM content and ignores DRM Nothing says "attempting to survive as a legitimate corporate entity" like "let's flagrantly violate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performances_and_Phonograms_Treaties_Implementation_Act#Section_103 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performance... ..."

mirimir 9y ago
Who needs to "survive as a legitimate corporate entity"? All you need is to publish a browser. And basic browsers aren't that hard. Just be anonymous. Edit: If oligarchs create unworkable rules, why not create a new game?

admax88q 9y ago

> It would be possible to create a browser that displays DRM content and ignores DRM. The DMCA makes this illegal. No browser vendor is going to take that risk. Maybe some anonymous developers will release a firefox fork or similar, but that's a big risk. Not to mention, most groups who pirate content tend to keep their methods secret and only release the content.

rplnt 9y ago
DMCA has no reach outside of USA.
- zentiggr 9y ago
  Well, it didn't until TPP, and what's to stop more agreements pushed through closed channels to make it truly global?
- Mindwipe 9y ago
  But multiple regional equivalents exist.
featherverse 9y ago
The only people who give a @!#$ about the DMCA are lawyers. It's going to be repealed eventually.