3 ms·

I wouldn't say that modern philosophers, or even old philosophers, have had much of an effect on current legislative decisions concerning things like euthanasia

by ue_ 9y ago

I wouldn't say that modern philosophers, or even old philosophers, have had much of an effect on current legislative decisions concerning things like euthanasia. As to what extent they have influenced real communities I also don't know about veganism (aside from perhaps Pinker, though again I don't know of his influence) but modern philosophy (since 1950s or so) has been "all the rage" within left-wing communities, most visibly the work of Slavoj Zizek who is seen as a "superstar Marxist philosopher". I'm under the impression that philosophical investigation has been largely ignored in science, though I don't have enough information to give a definitive answer. Principles in law seem to me to be unclear and not guided along any particular philosophy, despite in the UK at least PPE (politics, philosophy, economics) being a common choice of university degree for politicians. I have seen utterly terrible and fallacious and evidence-lacking arguments used to create hideous laws, as the arguments are public record in England and Wales. I'd say that philosophy doesn't have nearly as much impact as it should do, and anyone who disagrees with this should recognise that the ability to think critically is taught in any and all philosophy.

ue_ 9y ago
Why the downvotes for my comment? And why is this comment downvoted? If you don't think my comment above was substantive or helpful, please tell me so that I can improve the quality of my posts.
- grzm 9y ago
  Likely your second comment was downvoted because it's specifically against the guidelines: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ue_ 9y ago
    I don't think it does make boring reading at all. In fact, it makes very important reading - the strange drive-by downvoting culture on HN deserves to be called out. And as I have noted elsewhere, those are merely guidelines; if they are to be rules then they ought to be called as such.
    - grzm 9y ago
      I understand where you're coming from and sympathize with any effort to make HN a better place. I don't think you're necessarily going about it in a way that will accomplish that, or have taken to heart that there are some aspects of HN that are the way they are because that's how the mods want it to be after considered experience, thought, and reflection. I hesitated writing this response because it's not clear to me that it will have much of an effect: you seem intent on making HN the place you want, all the while ignoring the guidlines explicitly spelled out because you don't think they apply to you. Yes, they're guidelines. Communities often have norms that aren't written down in laws, and people that behave outside of those norms end up feeling some friction. You can argue about whether or not that's fair, but that's part of human psychology. Another aspect of human psychology one needs to take into account is figuring out what is effective in creating the change you want. That's key to me wondering whether this comment is worth writing, because I don't think it's the best way to convince you that you may be making things harder for yourself than you could otherwise. Unfortunately I can't think of a better way to do so right now. (Indeed, having followed your comments yesterday in another thread, I hesitated to even make my initial comment.) I think that's likely what drives some of the drive-by downvoting culture, as you put it. I remember a comment (likely by 'dang, but I can't find it at the moment) along the lines of how much effort it takes to respond well to comments like the last two you posted in this subthread. You asked why you you were downvoted (against the guidelines, and then again violated the guidelines with your edit), and when that was pointed out, stated that the guidlines are just that, so you shouldn't have been down voted. I'm really not sure how to answer you honestly in a way that you would accept, and take it upon yourself to accept some responsibity for the consequences of your comments, regardless of whether you personally agree with them. Communication involves every participant. I can affect my comments and responses, crafting them the best I can for productive conversation. I can't control how they'll be taken, but given what I understand of those I'm in discussion with, I can (and should) take that knowledge into account when I'm writing. To do otherwise just makes me ineffective and frustrated, and to do so repeatedly makes me appear a fool to those observing me, and they'll be even less likely to respond to me charitably. Here's a comment by 'dang on the topic of downvoting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440694 Also, if you search the archives, there's plenty of discussion on this, including people voicing exactly your concerns. While I sympathize with a "we shall overcome" attitude (I harbor some of that myself), expecting this to change just by continuing to call it out will likely work against you. Personally, I think encouraging better behavior while abiding by the guidelines is likely to make HN a better place. Finding the balance between encouraging good behavior and calling out bad is admittedly difficult. As a concrete example, here's a suggestion for rewriting one of your comments: You wrote: > Why the downvotes for my comment? And why is this comment downvoted? If you don't think my comment above was substantive or helpful, please tell me so that I can improve the quality of my posts. An alternative would be to just eliminate those first two sentences: > If you don't think my comment was substantive or helpful, please tell me so I can improve the quality of my posts. If within the editing time, you can append that to your post rather than starting a new comment. Try to frame it as best you can to not sound defensive. I do wish you the best and hope that you can read this in the spirit in which its intended. I want everyone (including you and me) to have a positive, constructive experience on HN, and that's why I've taken the time to write this lengthy comment.
euyyn 9y ago
Thanks for taking the time to answer, and sorry that you got downvoted. I don't see their point either; your response is as constructive as it gets.

by ue_ 9y ago

ue_ 9y ago

Why the downvotes for my comment? And why is this comment downvoted? If you don't think my comment above was substantive or helpful, please tell me so that I can improve the quality of my posts.

grzm 9y ago
Likely your second comment was downvoted because it's specifically against the guidelines: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ue_ 9y ago
  I don't think it does make boring reading at all. In fact, it makes very important reading - the strange drive-by downvoting culture on HN deserves to be called out. And as I have noted elsewhere, those are merely guidelines; if they are to be rules then they ought to be called as such.
  - grzm 9y ago
    I understand where you're coming from and sympathize with any effort to make HN a better place. I don't think you're necessarily going about it in a way that will accomplish that, or have taken to heart that there are some aspects of HN that are the way they are because that's how the mods want it to be after considered experience, thought, and reflection. I hesitated writing this response because it's not clear to me that it will have much of an effect: you seem intent on making HN the place you want, all the while ignoring the guidlines explicitly spelled out because you don't think they apply to you. Yes, they're guidelines. Communities often have norms that aren't written down in laws, and people that behave outside of those norms end up feeling some friction. You can argue about whether or not that's fair, but that's part of human psychology. Another aspect of human psychology one needs to take into account is figuring out what is effective in creating the change you want. That's key to me wondering whether this comment is worth writing, because I don't think it's the best way to convince you that you may be making things harder for yourself than you could otherwise. Unfortunately I can't think of a better way to do so right now. (Indeed, having followed your comments yesterday in another thread, I hesitated to even make my initial comment.) I think that's likely what drives some of the drive-by downvoting culture, as you put it. I remember a comment (likely by 'dang, but I can't find it at the moment) along the lines of how much effort it takes to respond well to comments like the last two you posted in this subthread. You asked why you you were downvoted (against the guidelines, and then again violated the guidelines with your edit), and when that was pointed out, stated that the guidlines are just that, so you shouldn't have been down voted. I'm really not sure how to answer you honestly in a way that you would accept, and take it upon yourself to accept some responsibity for the consequences of your comments, regardless of whether you personally agree with them. Communication involves every participant. I can affect my comments and responses, crafting them the best I can for productive conversation. I can't control how they'll be taken, but given what I understand of those I'm in discussion with, I can (and should) take that knowledge into account when I'm writing. To do otherwise just makes me ineffective and frustrated, and to do so repeatedly makes me appear a fool to those observing me, and they'll be even less likely to respond to me charitably. Here's a comment by 'dang on the topic of downvoting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440694 Also, if you search the archives, there's plenty of discussion on this, including people voicing exactly your concerns. While I sympathize with a "we shall overcome" attitude (I harbor some of that myself), expecting this to change just by continuing to call it out will likely work against you. Personally, I think encouraging better behavior while abiding by the guidelines is likely to make HN a better place. Finding the balance between encouraging good behavior and calling out bad is admittedly difficult. As a concrete example, here's a suggestion for rewriting one of your comments: You wrote: > Why the downvotes for my comment? And why is this comment downvoted? If you don't think my comment above was substantive or helpful, please tell me so that I can improve the quality of my posts. An alternative would be to just eliminate those first two sentences: > If you don't think my comment was substantive or helpful, please tell me so I can improve the quality of my posts. If within the editing time, you can append that to your post rather than starting a new comment. Try to frame it as best you can to not sound defensive. I do wish you the best and hope that you can read this in the spirit in which its intended. I want everyone (including you and me) to have a positive, constructive experience on HN, and that's why I've taken the time to write this lengthy comment.

euyyn 9y ago

Thanks for taking the time to answer, and sorry that you got downvoted. I don't see their point either; your response is as constructive as it gets.