5 ms·

>> Reaching the level of mastery where one can sightread any of the Beethoven concerti or a Liszt etude requires a lifetime of years/decades of dedicated practi

>> Reaching the level of mastery where one can sightread any of the Beethoven concerti or a Liszt etude requires a lifetime of years/decades of dedicated practice, but it is true that once you're at that level, you can find diminishing returns on hard work which encroach upon your creativity. I would argue that looking at sheet music and playing it requires very little creativity, if any at all. It is in that arena that practice is important. Being able to play anything put down in front of you is only possible with mastery of your instrument. However - if you are creating music mastery can get in the way. Often the best ideas come from stumbling upon things. If you know everything or know how things 'should' be done coming up with original ideas is difficult. Personally I've seen this in guitarists. There are some who are clearly masters of their instrument. They can play anything, at any speed, with a wide array of techniques at their disposal. Most of the time they don't write anything interesting.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago
"requires" is an interesting word. i think you can get away with being a robot, but you are basically saying that no classical musicians are creative, which is laughable. you can improvise dynamics, tone, articulation, phrasing, tempo... its not just the pitches man!
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  as a lifelong, professional classical and jazz musician, I can tell you that the current state of both very closely mirrors the current state for swe, it is just that swe's seem to have to go through what we have been through, just faster. There was a time in classical music and jazz, and even pop, when creativity was sought after. this time is no more. Classical/jazz has become a robotic craft in search of technical perfection. Back in the day, pianist-performers like Cortot or Grainger were appreciated for their personal contributions to style and art. Now, this kind of thing is shoved under to elevate technical perfection. It is robots all the way forward there for performers, and that is what they teach us in conservatories. They then pretend this is a form of artistry when it is simply reproduction of printed direction--- we are asked to be human compilers. This is what is understood by many to be musical art. Cortot makes too many errors for the kids as we say in the biz. We are also asked to do it all because we just love it so much-- who needs jobs or money? All we need to eat is love. Don't forget passion. So yeah, we have been asked to be as robotic as possible, as self erasing as possible if we want to get paid. Take heed swes! Btw, pretty much any first year music student at a conservatory can do what Lady GaGa does musically. Her "improv" isn't much of a strain for anyone who studies music at that level. The thing they can't do is see beyond to pop and understand that they need to find themselves a meat dress and a stylist plus a wealthy investor to pay for promo and these items. It isn't what we are inculcated to value-- nothing against that btw, and good for her, but she is no Rubenstein or even Streisand. She's a great performer and showperson though. Nothing wrong with that-- it is its own thing, but please. It is so not the same as being on the level of a Monk or Charlie Haden or Sun Ra or even Mostly Other People Do The Killing. I can tell you that Rubenstein and Any member of MOPDTK practiced a ridiculously stupid number of hours per day for years before they realized it doesn't make sense.
  - the_cat_kittles 9y ago
    good post. its funny, im a musician too. i decided the conservatory could fuck off after 1 year. ive found gypsy jazz a breath of fresh air personally... wonderful people and spirit, tons of gigs, technical virtuosity to the extreme, AND even some truly creative players. i do agree the paralells are strong esp between jazz people and swe. i dont know, you probably are further on your musical journey, but, i feel like complaining that creativity isnt present in music just means your hanging with the wrong people. in any case, a fun read, thanks
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      I agree, the conservatory really should fuck off. Creativity is definitely present in music, but unless you are a composer, you won't get paid for it. --not much anyway. Unfortunately, creativity doesn't really exist in classical performance anymore. When it exists in jazz, it is happening very rarely. There are exceptions, but no one knows these folks outside of jazz. - as you probably already know. The gypsy jazzers are a fun group of people, but again, it isn't creative, unless some nutball takes a really cool solo (once in a blue moon) which is such a wonderful moment when it happens. They are usually not asked to jump in much, as you probably also know. But nice to say heyto a fellow musician/engineer.
      - the_cat_kittles 9y ago
        you average jam, sure, its a bunch of licks mostly. but like... bireli? angelo debarre? sebastien giniaux? the list goes on... there are lots of people who come up with crazy shit on the fly. though you will find lots of licks in everyones playing
        brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
        with all respect to the great players of gypsy jazz (many of whom I like) gypsy jazz and solos over changes in that style is not really creative. It is a formula that has been invented. People like it;I like it too. But it's what I mean--- not innovative. It has nothing to do with our time. It is retro like BeBop. Recreating BeBop and Gypsy jazz is not creative- it is like really cool Civil War Reenactment. This is what I mean by music lacking creativity for the most part. I mean we don't support innovators- we support technically excellent practitioners of a well-known style. This is a craft, not an art. Nothing against great craft at all-- I love it. But we are in desperate need of art. Ditto in computer programming. It is important that it notice these pitfalls.
ivanhoe 9y ago
If what you're saying was true then any two good classical musicians would sound exactly the same... but they don't, right? The difference between a good pianist and the great pianist is in the expression of those same notes they're playing - call it as you wish: articulation, energy, dynamics, emotions...
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  these days, they sound pretty much the same-- no one is really scadalized or blown away by a classical artits' choices. Sure, we can "tell the diff" btw Hillary Hahn and Midori. But honestly, I can live without both of their dutiful takes on Standard Violin Concerto X. But if you know of some truly inspiring, artistic choice making, innovative classical player, I'd love to know so I can buy their record. I mean that sincerely.
  - crdb 9y ago
    Try post-stroke Stephen Kovacevich. He was already a maverick before, the loss of much of his physical ability forced him to review his approach and the result has, at least, forced me to reconsider my view of many pieces I thought I had done and dusted (e.g. Brahms 4th Ballade). Hearing him live was both terrifying and awakening. His Beethoven cycle is unique and changing over time. I also think that if you can abstract from the visual, Yuja Wang's playing has a ferocity and hunger for life that reminds me of the Russian School at its peak without the tragedy, and the technique to back it. I've not heard it in anybody else of her generation. It is a bit of a shame that her repertoire choices are so conservative, but to be expected given how she is marketed; I am very keen to hear what she will sound like in 40 years. Stephen Hough has a sensitivity and big picture awareness rare since the death of Richter. Sitting in a 4 hour masterclass on Franck, I learnt a dozen new things, almost as if new dimensions unfolded about the art (I got the same impression from reading Neuhaus' book - ideas clicked into place seeming so obvious ex post, unreachable ex ante). Finally Zhu Xiao-Mei has had an incredibly full life (from risking her life smuggling a piano and sheet music into Mao's reeducation camps and playing that piano in a meat freezer, to cleaning houses in LA before becoming a Parisian ghost wonder after accidentally playing a friend's piano and getting standing ovations in German concert halls that had greeted her with audible disdain) and it comes through in her playing. As a bonus you can "rediscover" a fair amount of Schumann this way.
kamaal 9y ago
>>Most of the time they don't write anything interesting. But they write a lot of thing. And by the law averages something interesting eventually emerges. They just shift the quantitative process to the non saturated elements in the process.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago

"requires" is an interesting word. i think you can get away with being a robot, but you are basically saying that no classical musicians are creative, which is laughable. you can improvise dynamics, tone, articulation, phrasing, tempo... its not just the pitches man!

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
as a lifelong, professional classical and jazz musician, I can tell you that the current state of both very closely mirrors the current state for swe, it is just that swe's seem to have to go through what we have been through, just faster. There was a time in classical music and jazz, and even pop, when creativity was sought after. this time is no more. Classical/jazz has become a robotic craft in search of technical perfection. Back in the day, pianist-performers like Cortot or Grainger were appreciated for their personal contributions to style and art. Now, this kind of thing is shoved under to elevate technical perfection. It is robots all the way forward there for performers, and that is what they teach us in conservatories. They then pretend this is a form of artistry when it is simply reproduction of printed direction--- we are asked to be human compilers. This is what is understood by many to be musical art. Cortot makes too many errors for the kids as we say in the biz. We are also asked to do it all because we just love it so much-- who needs jobs or money? All we need to eat is love. Don't forget passion. So yeah, we have been asked to be as robotic as possible, as self erasing as possible if we want to get paid. Take heed swes! Btw, pretty much any first year music student at a conservatory can do what Lady GaGa does musically. Her "improv" isn't much of a strain for anyone who studies music at that level. The thing they can't do is see beyond to pop and understand that they need to find themselves a meat dress and a stylist plus a wealthy investor to pay for promo and these items. It isn't what we are inculcated to value-- nothing against that btw, and good for her, but she is no Rubenstein or even Streisand. She's a great performer and showperson though. Nothing wrong with that-- it is its own thing, but please. It is so not the same as being on the level of a Monk or Charlie Haden or Sun Ra or even Mostly Other People Do The Killing. I can tell you that Rubenstein and Any member of MOPDTK practiced a ridiculously stupid number of hours per day for years before they realized it doesn't make sense.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  good post. its funny, im a musician too. i decided the conservatory could fuck off after 1 year. ive found gypsy jazz a breath of fresh air personally... wonderful people and spirit, tons of gigs, technical virtuosity to the extreme, AND even some truly creative players. i do agree the paralells are strong esp between jazz people and swe. i dont know, you probably are further on your musical journey, but, i feel like complaining that creativity isnt present in music just means your hanging with the wrong people. in any case, a fun read, thanks
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    I agree, the conservatory really should fuck off. Creativity is definitely present in music, but unless you are a composer, you won't get paid for it. --not much anyway. Unfortunately, creativity doesn't really exist in classical performance anymore. When it exists in jazz, it is happening very rarely. There are exceptions, but no one knows these folks outside of jazz. - as you probably already know. The gypsy jazzers are a fun group of people, but again, it isn't creative, unless some nutball takes a really cool solo (once in a blue moon) which is such a wonderful moment when it happens. They are usually not asked to jump in much, as you probably also know. But nice to say heyto a fellow musician/engineer.
    - the_cat_kittles 9y ago
      you average jam, sure, its a bunch of licks mostly. but like... bireli? angelo debarre? sebastien giniaux? the list goes on... there are lots of people who come up with crazy shit on the fly. though you will find lots of licks in everyones playing
      - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
        with all respect to the great players of gypsy jazz (many of whom I like) gypsy jazz and solos over changes in that style is not really creative. It is a formula that has been invented. People like it;I like it too. But it's what I mean--- not innovative. It has nothing to do with our time. It is retro like BeBop. Recreating BeBop and Gypsy jazz is not creative- it is like really cool Civil War Reenactment. This is what I mean by music lacking creativity for the most part. I mean we don't support innovators- we support technically excellent practitioners of a well-known style. This is a craft, not an art. Nothing against great craft at all-- I love it. But we are in desperate need of art. Ditto in computer programming. It is important that it notice these pitfalls.

ivanhoe 9y ago

If what you're saying was true then any two good classical musicians would sound exactly the same... but they don't, right? The difference between a good pianist and the great pianist is in the expression of those same notes they're playing - call it as you wish: articulation, energy, dynamics, emotions...

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
these days, they sound pretty much the same-- no one is really scadalized or blown away by a classical artits' choices. Sure, we can "tell the diff" btw Hillary Hahn and Midori. But honestly, I can live without both of their dutiful takes on Standard Violin Concerto X. But if you know of some truly inspiring, artistic choice making, innovative classical player, I'd love to know so I can buy their record. I mean that sincerely.
- crdb 9y ago
  Try post-stroke Stephen Kovacevich. He was already a maverick before, the loss of much of his physical ability forced him to review his approach and the result has, at least, forced me to reconsider my view of many pieces I thought I had done and dusted (e.g. Brahms 4th Ballade). Hearing him live was both terrifying and awakening. His Beethoven cycle is unique and changing over time. I also think that if you can abstract from the visual, Yuja Wang's playing has a ferocity and hunger for life that reminds me of the Russian School at its peak without the tragedy, and the technique to back it. I've not heard it in anybody else of her generation. It is a bit of a shame that her repertoire choices are so conservative, but to be expected given how she is marketed; I am very keen to hear what she will sound like in 40 years. Stephen Hough has a sensitivity and big picture awareness rare since the death of Richter. Sitting in a 4 hour masterclass on Franck, I learnt a dozen new things, almost as if new dimensions unfolded about the art (I got the same impression from reading Neuhaus' book - ideas clicked into place seeming so obvious ex post, unreachable ex ante). Finally Zhu Xiao-Mei has had an incredibly full life (from risking her life smuggling a piano and sheet music into Mao's reeducation camps and playing that piano in a meat freezer, to cleaning houses in LA before becoming a Parisian ghost wonder after accidentally playing a friend's piano and getting standing ovations in German concert halls that had greeted her with audible disdain) and it comes through in her playing. As a bonus you can "rediscover" a fair amount of Schumann this way.

kamaal 9y ago

>>Most of the time they don't write anything interesting. But they write a lot of thing. And by the law averages something interesting eventually emerges. They just shift the quantitative process to the non saturated elements in the process.