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> Private When you pay with Taler, your identity does not have to be revealed. Just like payments in cash, nobody else can track how you spent your electronic

> Private When you pay with Taler, your identity does not have to be revealed. Just like payments in cash, nobody else can track how you spent your electronic money. However, you obtain a legally valid proof of payment. > The exact details of the underlying contract that was signed between customer and merchant. However, this information would typically not include the identity of the customer. IRS: The term “money laundering” refers to the activities and financial transactions that are undertaken specifically to hide the true source of the money. https://www.irs.gov/compliance/criminal-investigation/overview-money-laundering https://www.irs.gov/compliance/criminal-investigation/overvi... Am I missing something? [I see by the downvotes this is an unpopular perspective, but I can't see how Taler's claims "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities" and "Taler prevents tax evasion and money laundering" are justifiable. It seems ideally designed for money laundering as defined by the IRS - "hiding the source of the money". Please explain it to me (ELI5)]

TeMPOraL 9y ago
My guess? Tax evasion is a different problem from money laundering, and Taler seems to care about the former, not the latter. Whether this turns into a legal obstacle for adoption remains to be seen.
- kbutler 9y ago
  "Taler prevents tax evasion and money laundering." https://taler.net/en/merchants.html https://taler.net/en/merchants.html I just don't see how they can claim that and claim to hide the payer identity.
jimktrains2 9y ago
How is this different from cash? Money laundering is about intent, not means of payment.
- kbutler 9y ago
  It is very similar to cash in that it is an anonymous means of payment. However, Taler tries to legitimize the transfer and explicitly claims "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities." https://taler.net/en/index.html https://taler.net/en/index.html But by hiding the source of funds, it seems eminently suitable for illegal activities. Putting a (partially) legitimate business as front to process illegal profits is a textbook money laundering structure.
  - jimktrains2 9y ago
    > Putting a (partially) legitimate business as front to process illegal profits is a textbook money laundering structure. Yes, but how does Taler equate to doing this? Again, how is it any different than cash? Money Laundering is about intent, not instrument.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      The primary uses of Taler will likely be legitimate - I never equated it to money laundering, just expressed my doubt for the assertion that it cannot be used for money laundering. I can't tell you how Taler differs from cash with respect to money laundering. That's why I asked the question. Can you tell me why Taler cannot be used for money laundering?
      - Accacin 9y ago
        I think you're reading the "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities." wrong. They're not saying you can't (as like you said, of course you could), they're saying you shouldn't I guess what they're saying is, "we don't want you to doing anything illegal on our service, but we can't really stop you easily if you were to do that".
        kbutler 9y ago
        "Taler prevents tax evasion and money laundering." https://taler.net/en/merchants.html https://taler.net/en/merchants.html
solatic 9y ago
First of all, cash is not "ideally designed for money laundering". Second of all, Taler improves upon cash for combatting money laundering. Money laundering by its very nature creates a dishonest paper trail to hide the real source. When laundering cash, the paper trail and the cash are separate, and because the serial numbers of bills are rarely recorded, there is no proof that the paperwork presented to regulators explaining the cash income actually resulted in said cash income. For example, imagine a cash-rich business being audited by the IRS. The business shows daily bank deposits of $10,000 per day, with approximately 100 daily receipts for 100 daily transactions worth about $100 each. The money launderers were actually trying to hide large single transfers of $300,000 monthly that were being buffered into daily deposits, but because the dishonest paperwork shows 3,000 separate transactions, that's what's "real" until proven otherwise. With Taler, the cash transfer and the contract are cryptographically bound. Which means that money launderers can't just draw up some fake paperwork after one large transaction, they need to make 3,000 real transactions actually happen, from real Taler wallets, which themselves must appear reputable since all Taler wallets are independently auditable (what good is having a money laundering business to hide your dishonest Taler wallets if your dishonest Taler wallets are in danger of being randomly audited themselves at some other point in time?) This drastically increases the cost of establishing an apparently honest paper trail, which in turn makes money laundering using Taler less appealing.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

My guess? Tax evasion is a different problem from money laundering, and Taler seems to care about the former, not the latter. Whether this turns into a legal obstacle for adoption remains to be seen.

kbutler 9y ago
"Taler prevents tax evasion and money laundering." https://taler.net/en/merchants.html https://taler.net/en/merchants.html I just don't see how they can claim that and claim to hide the payer identity.

jimktrains2 9y ago

How is this different from cash? Money laundering is about intent, not means of payment.

kbutler 9y ago
It is very similar to cash in that it is an anonymous means of payment. However, Taler tries to legitimize the transfer and explicitly claims "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities." https://taler.net/en/index.html https://taler.net/en/index.html But by hiding the source of funds, it seems eminently suitable for illegal activities. Putting a (partially) legitimate business as front to process illegal profits is a textbook money laundering structure.
- jimktrains2 9y ago
  > Putting a (partially) legitimate business as front to process illegal profits is a textbook money laundering structure. Yes, but how does Taler equate to doing this? Again, how is it any different than cash? Money Laundering is about intent, not instrument.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    The primary uses of Taler will likely be legitimate - I never equated it to money laundering, just expressed my doubt for the assertion that it cannot be used for money laundering. I can't tell you how Taler differs from cash with respect to money laundering. That's why I asked the question. Can you tell me why Taler cannot be used for money laundering?
    - Accacin 9y ago
      I think you're reading the "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities." wrong. They're not saying you can't (as like you said, of course you could), they're saying you shouldn't I guess what they're saying is, "we don't want you to doing anything illegal on our service, but we can't really stop you easily if you were to do that".
      - kbutler 9y ago
        "Taler prevents tax evasion and money laundering." https://taler.net/en/merchants.html https://taler.net/en/merchants.html

solatic 9y ago

First of all, cash is not "ideally designed for money laundering". Second of all, Taler improves upon cash for combatting money laundering. Money laundering by its very nature creates a dishonest paper trail to hide the real source. When laundering cash, the paper trail and the cash are separate, and because the serial numbers of bills are rarely recorded, there is no proof that the paperwork presented to regulators explaining the cash income actually resulted in said cash income. For example, imagine a cash-rich business being audited by the IRS. The business shows daily bank deposits of $10,000 per day, with approximately 100 daily receipts for 100 daily transactions worth about $100 each. The money launderers were actually trying to hide large single transfers of $300,000 monthly that were being buffered into daily deposits, but because the dishonest paperwork shows 3,000 separate transactions, that's what's "real" until proven otherwise. With Taler, the cash transfer and the contract are cryptographically bound. Which means that money launderers can't just draw up some fake paperwork after one large transaction, they need to make 3,000 real transactions actually happen, from real Taler wallets, which themselves must appear reputable since all Taler wallets are independently auditable (what good is having a money laundering business to hide your dishonest Taler wallets if your dishonest Taler wallets are in danger of being randomly audited themselves at some other point in time?) This drastically increases the cost of establishing an apparently honest paper trail, which in turn makes money laundering using Taler less appealing.