9 ms·

"You either die a counterculture or you live long enough to become the culture." The young/anti-establishment people of the 60's and 70's are the old/establish

"You either die a counterculture or you live long enough to become the culture." The young/anti-establishment people of the 60's and 70's are the old/establishment people of today.

coldtea 9y ago
And, at the same time, there are no young/anti-establishment people of today of any consequence. Not in any such numbers as to constitute an actual counter-culture anyway...
- iskander 9y ago
  The anarchist scene has seemed thriving in every city I've lived in.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Thriving in the sense that the goth scene is also thriving. It has a few places people hang out, occasionally they organize this or that, and they have a good time. Other than that just as insignificant, in influence, in power, in numbers and in mass appeal as the juggalo scene. Not much to write home about.
- VLM 9y ago
  Alt-right elected a president against incredible legacy media opposition...
  - yardie 9y ago
    The alt-right didn't get him elected. Good ol' American racism did. They certainly helped. But what helped more was he had a solid pulse on scared white men.
    - yung_endian 9y ago
      Not just white men - trump won with all categories of people identifying as white
      - yardie 9y ago
        Yes. And the narrative is his inauguration was an anomaly. That somehow the alt-right managed to get him elected. But there is nothing alt about securing over 70% of white male voters.
    - seabta 9y ago
      Scared? Or don't think the change in demographics is in the interest of their descendants?
      - yardie 9y ago
        To your second statement I think the term you're looking for is scared. The more fringe will throw in race war as if the rest of humanity has a vendetta against your average white male.
        seabta 9y ago
        Are you scared of everything you don't think is in your interest?
        dragontamer 9y ago
        I'm not gay, and therefore gay marriage and other LGBT issues have absolutely no positive effect on me personally. There's nothing scary about gay marriage, even if it advances the interests of people who are barely connected to me (I only have a few publicly gay friends, and most of them managed to get married by traveling elsewhere... like Canada). The whole "white nationalism" thingy with them freaking out about "advancements of other races" is kinda creepy to me. Just because one group of people benefit makes no difference to the strength of my position. Its like they don't understand the concept of "non-zero sum games".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- JBReefer 9y ago
  I think it's shocking how normative the culture is today. Fringe media says exactly the same things - pro-social justice, pro-a large social safety net, deep concern about climate change - as the major media. The only actual "counterculture" seems to be Breitbart et al, which is ... a change. Paper Magazine, the New York Times, and Gothamist now mostly reflect the same cultural ideals. It's fascinating. Was this what the 80s was like?
  - cvwright 9y ago
    Funny that you mention Breitbart. Their founder Andrew Breitbart claimed that he helped start Huffington Post in an effort to show that mainstream news sources (NY Times etc) actually share most of the views of groups toward the far left, ie the former counterculture. Was he successful? He certainly convinced most of the people on the right, but they were already on his bandwagon anyway... As someone in the middle, it's looking more and more like he had a point. (Even if the site that bears his name has become.. well, whatever it is, now.)
- tclancy 9y ago
  Is that true? It's not like effective counter-culture stuff is ever easily recognizable by older generations. Otherwise it wouldn't be fun. Remember ever cool word/ term you knew as a kid and how they immediately stopped being cool once you heard your parents use them?
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >It's not like effective counter-culture stuff is ever easily recognizable by older generations. It might not be easily understood, but it's usually both easily recognizable and frequently condemned. We're not talking about some secret society, but about major currents for change. >Remember ever cool word/ term you knew as a kid and how they immediately stopped being cool once you heard your parents use them? Yes. That's pop culture. Not anti-establishment culture.
- yung_endian 9y ago
  >And, at the same time, there are no young/anti-establishment people of today of any consequence LGBTQ spaces and movements? Black Lives Matter? Occupy Wall St and the subsequent progressive upswell which led to Bernie Sanders, an unknown independent from Vermont, to garner nearly as many votes as one of the most well-known politicians on the planet?
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Those are so tame, popular and media-friendly that are their own part of the modern establishment. Furthermore, they focus on small niches (gender, police brutality, etc) and are otherwise totally content with modern society. And OWS died before it was even born -- the best it could manage to was to prop up an alternative Democratic candidate (that would have given the same kind of fake "Hope" Obama ended up delivering to those that believed in him). If tame middle aged people who listen to Enya and mass media outlets can root for your cause, you're not exactly a counter-culture.
    - hsod 9y ago
      > Furthermore, they focus on small niches (gender, police brutality, etc) Neither of these is a small niche. Police brutality is a huge, huge issue. It may seem like a small niche to people who are not members of targeted demographics, though. > and are otherwise totally content with modern society. What leads you to believe this? From my personal experience this couldn't be more wrong Anyway, if you want real counter culture that middle aged people will still clutch their pearls over... what about Antifa?
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >It may seem like a small niche to people who are not members of targeted demographics, though. I'm not saying it's not important -- but as a request for change it is niche in scope, that is constrained to a small area of life (even if you are one of the targeted demographics). >What leads you to believe this?* Well, some internet ranting and rare protesting aside I don't see any alternative lifestyles there (or only very trite ones, the "fair trade coffee" equivalent of politics). It's all business as usual otherwise. >Anyway, if you want real counter culture that middle aged people will still clutch their pearls over... what about Antifa? Better in the shocks middle aged people respect, but scores less points on "culture". It's a reaction-based group, not an alternative cultural force.
Allower 9y ago
Sounds pretty. but i dont really buy it. Maybe SOME of their ideas have been absorbed into western cultures, but many have not, many continue to be anti-establishment ideas today.
Angostura 9y ago
Private Eye has done a pretty good job of maintaining the vibe.
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago
  Private Eye was never really countercultural. When Richard Neville, founder of the legendary 1960s countercultural newspaper OZ, moved to London, he met with Private Eye staff thinking that they might be on the same wavelength. Instead, he found they were very classist and old-fashioned (and homophobic). The counterculture wanted to utterly tear down the establishment. Private Eye might have poked fun at some establishment figures, but that doesn’t mean it had the same revolutionary aims as the true counterculture.
  - Angostura 9y ago
    This is a fair point.

"You either die a counterculture or you live long enough to become the culture." The young/anti-establishment people of the 60's and 70's are the old/establishment people of today.

coldtea 9y ago

And, at the same time, there are no young/anti-establishment people of today of any consequence. Not in any such numbers as to constitute an actual counter-culture anyway...

iskander 9y ago
The anarchist scene has seemed thriving in every city I've lived in.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Thriving in the sense that the goth scene is also thriving. It has a few places people hang out, occasionally they organize this or that, and they have a good time. Other than that just as insignificant, in influence, in power, in numbers and in mass appeal as the juggalo scene. Not much to write home about.
VLM 9y ago
Alt-right elected a president against incredible legacy media opposition...
- yardie 9y ago
  The alt-right didn't get him elected. Good ol' American racism did. They certainly helped. But what helped more was he had a solid pulse on scared white men.
  - yung_endian 9y ago
    Not just white men - trump won with all categories of people identifying as white
    - yardie 9y ago
      Yes. And the narrative is his inauguration was an anomaly. That somehow the alt-right managed to get him elected. But there is nothing alt about securing over 70% of white male voters.
  - seabta 9y ago
    Scared? Or don't think the change in demographics is in the interest of their descendants?
    - yardie 9y ago
      To your second statement I think the term you're looking for is scared. The more fringe will throw in race war as if the rest of humanity has a vendetta against your average white male.
      - seabta 9y ago
        Are you scared of everything you don't think is in your interest?
        dragontamer 9y ago
        I'm not gay, and therefore gay marriage and other LGBT issues have absolutely no positive effect on me personally. There's nothing scary about gay marriage, even if it advances the interests of people who are barely connected to me (I only have a few publicly gay friends, and most of them managed to get married by traveling elsewhere... like Canada). The whole "white nationalism" thingy with them freaking out about "advancements of other races" is kinda creepy to me. Just because one group of people benefit makes no difference to the strength of my position. Its like they don't understand the concept of "non-zero sum games".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
JBReefer 9y ago
I think it's shocking how normative the culture is today. Fringe media says exactly the same things - pro-social justice, pro-a large social safety net, deep concern about climate change - as the major media. The only actual "counterculture" seems to be Breitbart et al, which is ... a change. Paper Magazine, the New York Times, and Gothamist now mostly reflect the same cultural ideals. It's fascinating. Was this what the 80s was like?
- cvwright 9y ago
  Funny that you mention Breitbart. Their founder Andrew Breitbart claimed that he helped start Huffington Post in an effort to show that mainstream news sources (NY Times etc) actually share most of the views of groups toward the far left, ie the former counterculture. Was he successful? He certainly convinced most of the people on the right, but they were already on his bandwagon anyway... As someone in the middle, it's looking more and more like he had a point. (Even if the site that bears his name has become.. well, whatever it is, now.)
tclancy 9y ago
Is that true? It's not like effective counter-culture stuff is ever easily recognizable by older generations. Otherwise it wouldn't be fun. Remember ever cool word/ term you knew as a kid and how they immediately stopped being cool once you heard your parents use them?
- coldtea 9y ago
  >It's not like effective counter-culture stuff is ever easily recognizable by older generations. It might not be easily understood, but it's usually both easily recognizable and frequently condemned. We're not talking about some secret society, but about major currents for change. >Remember ever cool word/ term you knew as a kid and how they immediately stopped being cool once you heard your parents use them? Yes. That's pop culture. Not anti-establishment culture.
yung_endian 9y ago
>And, at the same time, there are no young/anti-establishment people of today of any consequence LGBTQ spaces and movements? Black Lives Matter? Occupy Wall St and the subsequent progressive upswell which led to Bernie Sanders, an unknown independent from Vermont, to garner nearly as many votes as one of the most well-known politicians on the planet?
- coldtea 9y ago
  Those are so tame, popular and media-friendly that are their own part of the modern establishment. Furthermore, they focus on small niches (gender, police brutality, etc) and are otherwise totally content with modern society. And OWS died before it was even born -- the best it could manage to was to prop up an alternative Democratic candidate (that would have given the same kind of fake "Hope" Obama ended up delivering to those that believed in him). If tame middle aged people who listen to Enya and mass media outlets can root for your cause, you're not exactly a counter-culture.
  - hsod 9y ago
    > Furthermore, they focus on small niches (gender, police brutality, etc) Neither of these is a small niche. Police brutality is a huge, huge issue. It may seem like a small niche to people who are not members of targeted demographics, though. > and are otherwise totally content with modern society. What leads you to believe this? From my personal experience this couldn't be more wrong Anyway, if you want real counter culture that middle aged people will still clutch their pearls over... what about Antifa?
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >It may seem like a small niche to people who are not members of targeted demographics, though. I'm not saying it's not important -- but as a request for change it is niche in scope, that is constrained to a small area of life (even if you are one of the targeted demographics). >What leads you to believe this?* Well, some internet ranting and rare protesting aside I don't see any alternative lifestyles there (or only very trite ones, the "fair trade coffee" equivalent of politics). It's all business as usual otherwise. >Anyway, if you want real counter culture that middle aged people will still clutch their pearls over... what about Antifa? Better in the shocks middle aged people respect, but scores less points on "culture". It's a reaction-based group, not an alternative cultural force.

Allower 9y ago

Sounds pretty. but i dont really buy it. Maybe SOME of their ideas have been absorbed into western cultures, but many have not, many continue to be anti-establishment ideas today.

Angostura 9y ago

Private Eye has done a pretty good job of maintaining the vibe.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago
Private Eye was never really countercultural. When Richard Neville, founder of the legendary 1960s countercultural newspaper OZ, moved to London, he met with Private Eye staff thinking that they might be on the same wavelength. Instead, he found they were very classist and old-fashioned (and homophobic). The counterculture wanted to utterly tear down the establishment. Private Eye might have poked fun at some establishment figures, but that doesn’t mean it had the same revolutionary aims as the true counterculture.
- Angostura 9y ago
  This is a fair point.