8 ms·

Lance Armstrong: The Road Goes on Forever

45 points by scapecast 9y ago

mikestew 9y ago
Of what little of the article I could stomach, sounds like Armstrong is as remorseful as ever. I just wonder why Outside magazine still picks up the phone when Armstrong’s PR agency calls. I mean, is there anyone left that cares?
- QAPereo 9y ago
  He has money to spend in testing the waters, and probably he's self deluded enough to expect that someday he can come back. He's wrong of course. As to why people pick up... clicks clicks clicks.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    After listening to him on Joe Rogan's podcast it was petty clear that he still doesn't really understand what he did wrong. If it's true that he only gave 5 million to Livestrong he probably made much more back through sponsor money so you could argue even that was just a calculated move for his own benefit. The sad thing is that with enough effort he will come back. He just hasn't mastered the art of fake remorse yet.
    - packetslave 9y ago
      Given the culture in elite cycling at the time, what he ultimately did wrong was cheat more effectively than everyone else did. Take a look at the results from the TdF and other major races from those years and see how many of the finishers behind Lance ended up also getting busted for doping. Armstrong's real sin was winning too much while being an outspoken ass about it, which painted a gigantic target on his back.
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        It was much worse. What he did to people who told the truth was outrageous. He destroyed people who were in his way. He is a very vicious and dangerous man.
        nkassis 9y ago
        This is the difference people who argue "everyone was doing it" miss. He was aggressive in going after people who broke the silence. He ruined people's life in the process, ending their career and slandering them in the media. None of his competitor went to the lengths he did. Read up on people like Betsy Andreu and how lance went after her and her husband for talking about what they knew.
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        Add his masseuse to the list.
      - packetslave 9y ago
        I'm most definitely not defending his character. If everything that's been reported is to be believed, he's an awful human being. But none of that stuff makes him any more or less guilty (when it comes to his cycling career) than Hamilton, or Herras, or Ulrich, or Basso, or any of the other big names that got popped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin... It ain't a pretty sport.
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        He is more guilty than all these guys because of the way he went after people who told the truth. He destroyed them knowing that they were right. Doping is the least of his bad deeds. He perfectly fits the image of the highly functioning psychopath.
    - kamaal 9y ago
      >>The sad thing is that with enough effort he will come back. Why is it sad? Are people expected to pay for wrong doing their whole life. I thought the concept of a punishment was reformation, not retribution.
      - drivingmenuts 9y ago
        > I thought the concept of a punishment was reformation, not retribution. Not in the US. We're still pretty bloody-minded toward people who somehow transgress society's rules.
      - QAPereo 9y ago
        Do you think that Lance Armstrong is in some way reforming or reformed?
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  By remorseful as ever, I take it to mean "not remorseful at all", right? (Not being facetious, this is my understanding of his attitude)
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Yes, I indeed assumed that everyone considers him to be not remorseful at all. But there should have been a culturally-appropriate sarcasm tag in that.
- quacker 9y ago
  > I just wonder why Outside magazine still picks up the phone when Armstrong’s PR agency calls. I mean, is there anyone left that cares? There's a trial set for November 6, 2017, to decide if he "committed fraud by doping"[1]. Though, there are some bits that give some insight into his (poor) character - mainly, that Armstrong was so angry about the whole situation, that he felt unfairly singled-out as the face of doping in cycling (when everyone was doing it), that he thinks he did an ultimate good fighting cancer, etc, etc. There's clearly still a big part of him that thinks his doping was justifiable. One question related to the trial - the article says, The Postal Service paid Armstrong’s team $32,267,279...and Armstrong personally, could be forced to pay back three times that, or $96,801,837...The Postal Service’s own commissioned studies, four of them, showed that its contract with Armstrong’s team was worth close to $140 million in global media exposure, showing, in other words, that the USPS got a good deal" What does this mean for the trial? What does it mean for Armstrong if they find the USPS benefitted from the fraudulent contract? There was also uncertainty about whether "Armstrong’s deceptions and aggressive behavior" would be allowed in testimony. What testimony along those lines would be relevant to the fraud case? 1: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/doping/lance-armstrongs-fraud-trial-is-set-for-november https://www.bicycling.com/culture/doping/lance-armstrongs-fr...
bitmapbrother 9y ago
I often wonder if Armstrong could have avoided all of this had he simply made the decision not to return to the Tour De France after his retirement.
- TheCondor 9y ago
  Almost certainly. Floyd Landis has said as much. I will say, The Forward is remarkably entertaining. For all the dick moves Armstrong has made, he's a likable interviewer that is kind of relatable. He still an endurance sport alpha male but he has a natural chemistry when he interviews.
- hndamien 9y ago
  He could have avoided it by being a nice person.
tryingagainbro 9y ago
Sure he is sorry--that all his lies and manipulations didn't work. He also tried to ruin the lives of those that told the truth, so screw him.
- Caballera 9y ago
  you mean those that told the truth after they got caught? Or those that told the truth after claiming for YEARS that they weren't cheating, and then later confessed, and threw everyone under the bus? Those people?
  - gammarator 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons
eadmund 9y ago
> A month later, he reached an agreement to do podcast coverage of the Colorado Classic stage race, but concerns raised by USADA prompted organizers to cancel the deal. That seems pretty awful. Sure, he's banned for life from cycling, but should he be banned for life from commenting? That seems too much for me, too much by far. > His WeDu partner is a former professional racer (once part of the U.S. Postal team) and Silicon Valley executive named Dylan Casey. “To be a good cyclist, you have to love suffering,” says Casey, who until recently worked for Yahoo. I'm sorry, I know it adds nothing to the conversation, but seriously … I snickered. There's no way the reporter didn't do this on purpose.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- astrodust 9y ago
  > That seems too much for me, too much by far. Oh, you know, he only came to represent the worst excesses of doping and covering up, so let's give him a pass and welcome him back as a literal spokesperson for the sport! At this rate Bill Cosby will be hosting the Oscars.
sharkweek 9y ago
>You cannot see, or feel, the pain he experienced when many of his friends and colleagues deserted him or when he was forcibly separated from his cancer-fighting foundation. Literal LOL on this - Oh poor Lance... I forgot the part of the story where his friends deserted him, and not the other way around. If you want a real glimpse into all the people he screwed over, check out the documentary 'Stop at Nothing' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ofoGHNTXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ofoGHNTXs In all honesty, as a cyclist, and a fan of professional cycling, I'd be able to forgive the cheating, everyone was doing it during that era. But the way he handled everything else was a complete disgrace.
- esterly 9y ago
  Agreed. As a former fan I can say I was duped. DDG/Google Lance Armstrong D... and it will autocomplete to Destroys lives. http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/former-employee-says-lance-armstrong-made-life-very-very-unpleasant http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/form... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9804679/Armstrong-team-mate-Lance-ruined-peoples-lives-if-they-accused-him-of-doping.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancear... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gil-laroya/understanding-how-bad-lan_b_2513561.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gil-laroya/understanding-how-b...
- eksemplar 9y ago
  As a European I never understood why Armstrong had it so rough, almost every top tour contestant from the era and going back almost 50 years have been doped, many of them have even admitted it. Yet Armstrong got completely fucked by it. I used to think it was because America handles liars and cheats different than us, but looking at your bankers and wallstreeters go free as well as Trump winning and remaining in the White House, it seems that you're not rougher on liars and cheats than we are. So what was it? Was Armstrong really that much of an asshole?
  - Overtonwindow 9y ago
    America has a very vengeful streak. We don't just get angry when we disagree, we take vengeance and retribution to an entirely new level.
swang 9y ago
maybe if he owned up to the mistake and maybe hadn't made millions off his deception, maybe if he actually testified about the drugs and methods he used, maybe if he didn't fuck over people on his own team.. maybe i would feel some sympathy. but fuck lance armstrong.
- esterly 9y ago
  FACT. before you get down voted for no references: http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/former-employee-says-lance-armstrong-made-life-very-very-unpleasant http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/form... https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/01/the-small-petty-fraudulent-vendettas-of-lance-armstrong/267184/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/01/th... http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/20/sport/lance-armstrong-rehabilitation-cycling/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/20/sport/lance-armstrong-reha... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-armstrong-has-been-trying-to-destroy-me-for-10-years/ http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-armstrong-has-been-tr...
Overtonwindow 9y ago
I've forgiven him. He got me off the sofa and onto the bike as a kid and has been a great inspiration ever since. Everyone doped, and I believe including Greg LeMond. Let the man get on with his life.
olivermarks 9y ago
I sat a few feet from Armstrong at the 2012 SAP/ASAUG Sapphire conference as he was performing his keynote speech. This was before his admissions around doping and at the height of the livestrong wrist bracelets etc, but I sensed a fakeness, particularly in his eyes as he spoke. If Armstrong is worth 100 million as this article suggests he will have no trouble funding a pr campaign of the type this article smells of. At least Bell Pottinger have gone out of business, but there are many other pr firms that will do anything for money. Never underestimate the power of money and the media machine https://youtu.be/-glDd70H5os https://youtu.be/-glDd70H5os It's disappointing to see Outside peddling this sort of positioning.
deepnotderp 9y ago
I genuinely have to ask, what's morally wrong with using PEDs? Instead of down voting me, please actually respond with an argument. EDIT: people will say "but it's not fair to those who are "clean". But there are also people who are at a major genetic advantage. For example, Armstrong uses EPO, but there are people with genetically higher amounts of EPO in their body naturally, without synthetic EPO injection, no matter how hard Armstrong trained he never would've beaten them, how is that fair?
- hyperbovine 9y ago
  Lying about it and competing against people who aren't, duh.
  - sintaxi 9y ago
    Also, he sued and attempted to destroy the people who accused him of doping.
  - packetslave 9y ago
    While you're not wrong about the lying, back when Lance was riding nearly everybody was doping. Tyler Hamilton's book covered it pretty well: if you didn't dope, you weren't competitive. Period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin...
  - deepnotderp 9y ago
    But there are also people who are at a major genetic advantage. For example, Armstrong uses EPO, but there are people with genetically higher amounts of EPO in their body naturally, without synthetic EPO injection, no matter how hard Armstrong trained he never would've beaten them, how is that fair?
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      If your genetics aren't up to snuff you just have to accept that you won't make it to the top.
kdamken 9y ago
Oh no! The bad man cheated at bicycling! How will the world ever recover? On a serious note, I'm always surprised when people are surprised that top level athletes, businessmen, etc resort to cheating and unethical actions to stay on top. At that level, you basically need to be a sociopath who is willing to win by any means necessary.
bronz 9y ago
i knew a guy in highschool who was really into bicycles. one time i was talking to him about lance armstrong and he commented on how he has met him one time, and that he was a complete asshole. then he said that lance armstrong was using steroids during all his races and that he employed special techniques in order to evade the drug tests. this was in around 2007. obviously i thought that my friend was completely full of shit.
bronz 9y ago
what the hell is going on with this web site? this is the most perfect news web site i have ever seen in my entire life. there is not a single false note in their entire presentation. after a video is done playing, a white border tastefully wraps around the next video to play. all of the visual design looks great. there are no annoying pop ups or weird pop down banners or anything like that. and the content is really nice too, all done very well. it is almost strange to come across a site where there are no glaring errors of presentation or execution. i really have to commend these people.

45 points by scapecast 9y ago

Of what little of the article I could stomach, sounds like Armstrong is as remorseful as ever. I just wonder why Outside magazine still picks up the phone when Armstrong’s PR agency calls. I mean, is there anyone left that cares?

QAPereo 9y ago
He has money to spend in testing the waters, and probably he's self deluded enough to expect that someday he can come back. He's wrong of course. As to why people pick up... clicks clicks clicks.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  After listening to him on Joe Rogan's podcast it was petty clear that he still doesn't really understand what he did wrong. If it's true that he only gave 5 million to Livestrong he probably made much more back through sponsor money so you could argue even that was just a calculated move for his own benefit. The sad thing is that with enough effort he will come back. He just hasn't mastered the art of fake remorse yet.
  - packetslave 9y ago
    Given the culture in elite cycling at the time, what he ultimately did wrong was cheat more effectively than everyone else did. Take a look at the results from the TdF and other major races from those years and see how many of the finishers behind Lance ended up also getting busted for doping. Armstrong's real sin was winning too much while being an outspoken ass about it, which painted a gigantic target on his back.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      It was much worse. What he did to people who told the truth was outrageous. He destroyed people who were in his way. He is a very vicious and dangerous man.
      - nkassis 9y ago
        This is the difference people who argue "everyone was doing it" miss. He was aggressive in going after people who broke the silence. He ruined people's life in the process, ending their career and slandering them in the media. None of his competitor went to the lengths he did. Read up on people like Betsy Andreu and how lance went after her and her husband for talking about what they knew.
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        Add his masseuse to the list.
    - packetslave 9y ago
      I'm most definitely not defending his character. If everything that's been reported is to be believed, he's an awful human being. But none of that stuff makes him any more or less guilty (when it comes to his cycling career) than Hamilton, or Herras, or Ulrich, or Basso, or any of the other big names that got popped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin... It ain't a pretty sport.
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        He is more guilty than all these guys because of the way he went after people who told the truth. He destroyed them knowing that they were right. Doping is the least of his bad deeds. He perfectly fits the image of the highly functioning psychopath.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    >>The sad thing is that with enough effort he will come back. Why is it sad? Are people expected to pay for wrong doing their whole life. I thought the concept of a punishment was reformation, not retribution.
    - drivingmenuts 9y ago
      > I thought the concept of a punishment was reformation, not retribution. Not in the US. We're still pretty bloody-minded toward people who somehow transgress society's rules.
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      Do you think that Lance Armstrong is in some way reforming or reformed?
hkmurakami 9y ago
By remorseful as ever, I take it to mean "not remorseful at all", right? (Not being facetious, this is my understanding of his attitude)
- mikestew 9y ago
  Yes, I indeed assumed that everyone considers him to be not remorseful at all. But there should have been a culturally-appropriate sarcasm tag in that.
quacker 9y ago
> I just wonder why Outside magazine still picks up the phone when Armstrong’s PR agency calls. I mean, is there anyone left that cares? There's a trial set for November 6, 2017, to decide if he "committed fraud by doping"[1]. Though, there are some bits that give some insight into his (poor) character - mainly, that Armstrong was so angry about the whole situation, that he felt unfairly singled-out as the face of doping in cycling (when everyone was doing it), that he thinks he did an ultimate good fighting cancer, etc, etc. There's clearly still a big part of him that thinks his doping was justifiable. One question related to the trial - the article says, The Postal Service paid Armstrong’s team $32,267,279...and Armstrong personally, could be forced to pay back three times that, or $96,801,837...The Postal Service’s own commissioned studies, four of them, showed that its contract with Armstrong’s team was worth close to $140 million in global media exposure, showing, in other words, that the USPS got a good deal" What does this mean for the trial? What does it mean for Armstrong if they find the USPS benefitted from the fraudulent contract? There was also uncertainty about whether "Armstrong’s deceptions and aggressive behavior" would be allowed in testimony. What testimony along those lines would be relevant to the fraud case? 1: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/doping/lance-armstrongs-fraud-trial-is-set-for-november https://www.bicycling.com/culture/doping/lance-armstrongs-fr...

bitmapbrother 9y ago

I often wonder if Armstrong could have avoided all of this had he simply made the decision not to return to the Tour De France after his retirement.

TheCondor 9y ago
Almost certainly. Floyd Landis has said as much. I will say, The Forward is remarkably entertaining. For all the dick moves Armstrong has made, he's a likable interviewer that is kind of relatable. He still an endurance sport alpha male but he has a natural chemistry when he interviews.
hndamien 9y ago
He could have avoided it by being a nice person.

tryingagainbro 9y ago

Sure he is sorry--that all his lies and manipulations didn't work. He also tried to ruin the lives of those that told the truth, so screw him.

Caballera 9y ago
you mean those that told the truth after they got caught? Or those that told the truth after claiming for YEARS that they weren't cheating, and then later confessed, and threw everyone under the bus? Those people?
- gammarator 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons

eadmund 9y ago

> A month later, he reached an agreement to do podcast coverage of the Colorado Classic stage race, but concerns raised by USADA prompted organizers to cancel the deal. That seems pretty awful. Sure, he's banned for life from cycling, but should he be banned for life from commenting? That seems too much for me, too much by far. > His WeDu partner is a former professional racer (once part of the U.S. Postal team) and Silicon Valley executive named Dylan Casey. “To be a good cyclist, you have to love suffering,” says Casey, who until recently worked for Yahoo. I'm sorry, I know it adds nothing to the conversation, but seriously … I snickered. There's no way the reporter didn't do this on purpose.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
astrodust 9y ago
> That seems too much for me, too much by far. Oh, you know, he only came to represent the worst excesses of doping and covering up, so let's give him a pass and welcome him back as a literal spokesperson for the sport! At this rate Bill Cosby will be hosting the Oscars.

sharkweek 9y ago

>You cannot see, or feel, the pain he experienced when many of his friends and colleagues deserted him or when he was forcibly separated from his cancer-fighting foundation. Literal LOL on this - Oh poor Lance... I forgot the part of the story where his friends deserted him, and not the other way around. If you want a real glimpse into all the people he screwed over, check out the documentary 'Stop at Nothing' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ofoGHNTXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ofoGHNTXs In all honesty, as a cyclist, and a fan of professional cycling, I'd be able to forgive the cheating, everyone was doing it during that era. But the way he handled everything else was a complete disgrace.

esterly 9y ago
Agreed. As a former fan I can say I was duped. DDG/Google Lance Armstrong D... and it will autocomplete to Destroys lives. http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/former-employee-says-lance-armstrong-made-life-very-very-unpleasant http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/form... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9804679/Armstrong-team-mate-Lance-ruined-peoples-lives-if-they-accused-him-of-doping.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancear... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gil-laroya/understanding-how-bad-lan_b_2513561.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gil-laroya/understanding-how-b...
eksemplar 9y ago
As a European I never understood why Armstrong had it so rough, almost every top tour contestant from the era and going back almost 50 years have been doped, many of them have even admitted it. Yet Armstrong got completely fucked by it. I used to think it was because America handles liars and cheats different than us, but looking at your bankers and wallstreeters go free as well as Trump winning and remaining in the White House, it seems that you're not rougher on liars and cheats than we are. So what was it? Was Armstrong really that much of an asshole?
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  America has a very vengeful streak. We don't just get angry when we disagree, we take vengeance and retribution to an entirely new level.

swang 9y ago

maybe if he owned up to the mistake and maybe hadn't made millions off his deception, maybe if he actually testified about the drugs and methods he used, maybe if he didn't fuck over people on his own team.. maybe i would feel some sympathy. but fuck lance armstrong.

esterly 9y ago
FACT. before you get down voted for no references: http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/former-employee-says-lance-armstrong-made-life-very-very-unpleasant http://www.espn.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/8860572/form... https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/01/the-small-petty-fraudulent-vendettas-of-lance-armstrong/267184/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/01/th... http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/20/sport/lance-armstrong-rehabilitation-cycling/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/20/sport/lance-armstrong-reha... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-armstrong-has-been-trying-to-destroy-me-for-10-years/ http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-armstrong-has-been-tr...

Overtonwindow 9y ago

I've forgiven him. He got me off the sofa and onto the bike as a kid and has been a great inspiration ever since. Everyone doped, and I believe including Greg LeMond. Let the man get on with his life.

olivermarks 9y ago

I sat a few feet from Armstrong at the 2012 SAP/ASAUG Sapphire conference as he was performing his keynote speech. This was before his admissions around doping and at the height of the livestrong wrist bracelets etc, but I sensed a fakeness, particularly in his eyes as he spoke. If Armstrong is worth 100 million as this article suggests he will have no trouble funding a pr campaign of the type this article smells of. At least Bell Pottinger have gone out of business, but there are many other pr firms that will do anything for money. Never underestimate the power of money and the media machine https://youtu.be/-glDd70H5os https://youtu.be/-glDd70H5os It's disappointing to see Outside peddling this sort of positioning.

deepnotderp 9y ago

I genuinely have to ask, what's morally wrong with using PEDs? Instead of down voting me, please actually respond with an argument. EDIT: people will say "but it's not fair to those who are "clean". But there are also people who are at a major genetic advantage. For example, Armstrong uses EPO, but there are people with genetically higher amounts of EPO in their body naturally, without synthetic EPO injection, no matter how hard Armstrong trained he never would've beaten them, how is that fair?

hyperbovine 9y ago
Lying about it and competing against people who aren't, duh.
- sintaxi 9y ago
  Also, he sued and attempted to destroy the people who accused him of doping.
- packetslave 9y ago
  While you're not wrong about the lying, back when Lance was riding nearly everybody was doping. Tyler Hamilton's book covered it pretty well: if you didn't dope, you weren't competitive. Period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin...
- deepnotderp 9y ago
  But there are also people who are at a major genetic advantage. For example, Armstrong uses EPO, but there are people with genetically higher amounts of EPO in their body naturally, without synthetic EPO injection, no matter how hard Armstrong trained he never would've beaten them, how is that fair?
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    If your genetics aren't up to snuff you just have to accept that you won't make it to the top.

kdamken 9y ago

Oh no! The bad man cheated at bicycling! How will the world ever recover? On a serious note, I'm always surprised when people are surprised that top level athletes, businessmen, etc resort to cheating and unethical actions to stay on top. At that level, you basically need to be a sociopath who is willing to win by any means necessary.

bronz 9y ago

i knew a guy in highschool who was really into bicycles. one time i was talking to him about lance armstrong and he commented on how he has met him one time, and that he was a complete asshole. then he said that lance armstrong was using steroids during all his races and that he employed special techniques in order to evade the drug tests. this was in around 2007. obviously i thought that my friend was completely full of shit.

bronz 9y ago

what the hell is going on with this web site? this is the most perfect news web site i have ever seen in my entire life. there is not a single false note in their entire presentation. after a video is done playing, a white border tastefully wraps around the next video to play. all of the visual design looks great. there are no annoying pop ups or weird pop down banners or anything like that. and the content is really nice too, all done very well. it is almost strange to come across a site where there are no glaring errors of presentation or execution. i really have to commend these people.