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I'm not sure this argument works -- many democratic states (including the US) were also created by violent revolutionaries.

by panic 9y ago

FridgeSeal 9y ago
I mean, it doesn't exactly help that the US happily destabilizes any budding, non-capitalist state and installs a puppet of their own...
unabridged 9y ago
The american colonies were not democratic, they needed a violent revolution to create a democracy. There was no peaceful mechanism for them to take power. Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over. They could have peacefully taken control in elections if they were able to convince the voters. But instead they disbanded the legislatures and stopped having elections.
- kbart 9y ago
  "Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over." Russia was not[0]. One of the key reasons that laid foundations for revolution there was wide discontent of nobles and their arrogance towards common people. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy
  - unabridged 9y ago
    The people overthrew the Tsar and had one free election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election,_1917 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_e... The authoritarians (bolsheviks) didn't like the results (thought the people weren't conscious enough yet to be trusted to be democratic) and disbanded the democratic assembly. Instead they used their own assembly made of up representatives indirectly elected via small local groups where they controlled the voting by force. Which caused a civil war in which the authoritarians won. The authoritarians were just more organized and better at violence.
    - kbart 9y ago
      An interesting history fact I didn't know -- thank you. But I doubt one election, which results were immediately negated anyway, is enough to call Russia "a democracy". It looks like it was just a (failed) attempt of bolsheviks to get an international legitimacy.

I'm not sure this argument works -- many democratic states (including the US) were also created by violent revolutionaries.

by panic 9y ago

I'm not sure this argument works -- many democratic states (including the US) were also created by violent revolutionaries.

FridgeSeal 9y ago

I mean, it doesn't exactly help that the US happily destabilizes any budding, non-capitalist state and installs a puppet of their own...

unabridged 9y ago

The american colonies were not democratic, they needed a violent revolution to create a democracy. There was no peaceful mechanism for them to take power. Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over. They could have peacefully taken control in elections if they were able to convince the voters. But instead they disbanded the legislatures and stopped having elections.

kbart 9y ago
"Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over." Russia was not[0]. One of the key reasons that laid foundations for revolution there was wide discontent of nobles and their arrogance towards common people. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy
- unabridged 9y ago
  The people overthrew the Tsar and had one free election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election,_1917 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_e... The authoritarians (bolsheviks) didn't like the results (thought the people weren't conscious enough yet to be trusted to be democratic) and disbanded the democratic assembly. Instead they used their own assembly made of up representatives indirectly elected via small local groups where they controlled the voting by force. Which caused a civil war in which the authoritarians won. The authoritarians were just more organized and better at violence.
  - kbart 9y ago
    An interesting history fact I didn't know -- thank you. But I doubt one election, which results were immediately negated anyway, is enough to call Russia "a democracy". It looks like it was just a (failed) attempt of bolsheviks to get an international legitimacy.