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Coercive comments being objectively wrong I can understand, but this is not the case 100% of the time. Obviously, coercing someone into sex is borderline immora

Coercive comments being objectively wrong I can understand, but this is not the case 100% of the time. Obviously, coercing someone into sex is borderline immoral (Edit: I looked up the actual definition of coercing, and would actually say it's completely immoral, since it's unwanted), and if there is any threat or power behind it it's essentially blackmail. What I don't understand is the unwelcome side of things. This is where my argument stems from. There are a lot of things that large portions of society feel are unwelcome that others feel are perfectly acceptable. I look back at history, with all the "unwelcome" things we have arbitrarily restricted that resulted in oppression, and I feel like we are dangerously close to making the same mistakes. I mean there was a time when scientific discourse was very "unwelcome", and it didn't really benefit society much. Is saying, "Nice behind", the same as discussing mathematics, of course not. However, I still feel like we are closing in on a world where any expression of sexuality or attraction is disallowed. Which is think is a fine thing for a company to opt for, but not something we should be forcing. If a company want's to ban all sexuality and non professional interaction, forcing their employees to wear uniforms and only talk directly about business, this is fine. However, if a company want's to have bikini/board shorts day, and allow consensual non coerced sex in the office, I also think this is fine. Because the simple truth is, not everybody find this unwelcome. I'm hoping someday people will realize that none of this is objective, and there are actually perspectives dramatically different than their own. It's not just one person either, and there is a spectrum. We need to stop forcing our narrow perspectives on others, and learn to live and let live. Edit: If people feel they can't work at a place with a certain set of rules or philosophies then they need to simply move on. Should a Muslim coffee shop not be allowed to print verses on their cups because their American workers find it offensive and unwelcome?

solidsnack9000 9y ago
> I'm hoping someday people will realize that none of this is objective, and there are actually perspectives dramatically different than their own. The issue isn't whether this or that form of expression is okay with someone or okay with everyone. Again we look to things like self-defense and assault: these cases are not settled by the judge doing a poll to see if someone else would feel intimidated in a similar situation or if everyone (that they could find) would feel fine with it. The issue is whether a reasonable person would find the conduct irritating, coercive or intimidating in the work place. > ...I still feel like we are closing in on a world where any expression of sexuality or attraction is disallowed. There is something to what you're saying here. Often people supplant the "reasonable person" standard with a "someone feels bad" standard -- I have seen it places I've worked, though not with regards to sexual harassment. But two wrongs do not make a right. The alternative to the "someone feels bad" standard is not the "yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man" standard. > If people feel they can't work at a place with a certain set of rules or philosophies then they need to simply move on. Why do you believe they "need" to move on? Why can't they stand and fight?

solidsnack9000 9y ago

> I'm hoping someday people will realize that none of this is objective, and there are actually perspectives dramatically different than their own. The issue isn't whether this or that form of expression is okay with someone or okay with everyone. Again we look to things like self-defense and assault: these cases are not settled by the judge doing a poll to see if someone else would feel intimidated in a similar situation or if everyone (that they could find) would feel fine with it. The issue is whether a reasonable person would find the conduct irritating, coercive or intimidating in the work place. > ...I still feel like we are closing in on a world where any expression of sexuality or attraction is disallowed. There is something to what you're saying here. Often people supplant the "reasonable person" standard with a "someone feels bad" standard -- I have seen it places I've worked, though not with regards to sexual harassment. But two wrongs do not make a right. The alternative to the "someone feels bad" standard is not the "yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man" standard. > If people feel they can't work at a place with a certain set of rules or philosophies then they need to simply move on. Why do you believe they "need" to move on? Why can't they stand and fight?