6 ms·

Apple sells hardware differentiated by integrated software for premium pricing. They want to build better and more expensive products through superior design an

by wyc 9y ago

Apple sells hardware differentiated by integrated software for premium pricing. They want to build better and more expensive products through superior design and quality control. Collecting and analyzing personal data isn't the most important thing for their business. They might see more benefit by eschewing personal data collection and marketing a privacy-focused message, which they seem to be doing. In contrast, Google and Facebook are companies that sell advertising. The value they can offer to publishers and advertisers completely relies on how well they know their users. Their competitive moat involves collection of proprietary data to continuously improve their products. These are clear incentives to be sticky and greedy with your information, but also to keep it private and proprietary for their own sake. With these incentives in mind, I more readily trust Apple when it says that it will not collect my data compared to data conglomerates, and Apple hasn't done anything to aggressively betray that idea in its history (to my knowledge). Combined with the technical security advantages of iOS, I'm inclined to believe Apple products to be the least-bad option for the security-minded today.

yaseer 9y ago
I agree with this reasoning (although I'm not particularly privacy minded, and prefer Android and most Google products to iOS and iCloud). The older tech companies like Apple and Microsoft have built business models with a different set of incentives around user data. Google, and particularly Facebook's, business models entirely rely on monetising user data. My personal 'ranking' of a companies incentives to respect privacy is something like: 1. Microsoft 2. Apple 3. Amazon 4. Google 5. Facebook Obviously this ranking is very debatable, but I agree business model incentives are a pretty good heuristic.
- chickenfries 9y ago
  I'm curious why you would say that Microsoft has the most respect for privacy given Windows 10 telemetry. Is there a MacOS or iOS equivalent?
  - spsful 9y ago
    Nope, Apple even goes to great lengths to preserve user privacy in the data they collect (See Apple's use of differential privacy)
  - alexeldeib 9y ago
    nb: ms employee I would flip MS/Apple personally, but I understand the argument from the perspective of business incentives. Microsoft's incentives don't really care about collection of telemetry, but they have a strong incentive to keep customer data secure from outside entities (e.g., businesses on MS products losing corporate data to outsiders).
  - yaseer 9y ago
    I wasn't ranking the company's practices so much as their incentives, based on their business model. Microsoft derives most of its revenue from enterprise software, the others from consumers. Enterprises are generally more concerned with privacy of their data than consumers. Arguably Apple have shown better practices of late. My ranking is more what one would expect 'in theory'.
    - vacri 9y ago
      Microsoft puts ads into Windows 10. With ads comes tracking.
  - userbinator 9y ago
    Pre-Win10, pre-telemetry Microsoft was pretty much "hands-off", i.e. you bought the software and then they mostly left you alone.
    - c029 9y ago
      Maybe hands off compared to now, but not compared to any other OS of the same era. If it's not activation licences (it's always amused me that performing a hardware upgrade on a cracked copy of XP was less troublesome than on a legally purchased copy), it's frequent notifications "you're not running our firewall", "you don't seem to be running our preferred antivirus", etc. And worse yet, Windows Updates often sneaks in updates for new software you didn't even request and often don't want: Bing search bars, Microsoft's shitty AV, MSN Messenger (back in the 90s), Silverlight, Windows 10(!!!) etc. Compare that to Linux, OS X, BeOS, any of the BSDs, etc and the difference is night and day. Ok, Ubuntu had a stint of including Amazon results in their search but they were relatively transparent about that and it was quickly disabled by default after the backlash they, deservingly imo, received. Windows has always been very "hands on" because it's designed for users who are very "hands off".
alecco 9y ago
There's only one way to fight back. First: Move out of Google and Facebook. In particular email. It's a good idea as they can lock you out for nothing without explanations. They've been doing this a lot recently. You are not famous so a twitter mob won't help you. Second: Since most pages out there have trackers from these companies, install Ad Nauseam extension to not just block tracking but click on everything in the background. This will ruin the information they gather about you with noise. https://adnauseam.io/ https://adnauseam.io/
- paulryanrogers 9y ago
  Ad Nauseam is a curious recommendation. While it devalues you individually, it also consumes bandwidth locally and remotely. Feels like accelerating the arms race.
mirimir 9y ago
I do like Apple's approach to privacy. A lot. And I love their phones. While their PC hardware is still pretty, it's getting more-and-more outdated and overpriced. But that's no longer their focus, so hey. And indeed, Apple seems to handle privacy well, in practice. I've managed to create pseudonymous accounts at Apple's online store, and fund them with anonymized Bitcoin. And I've managed to make digital purchases. However, I haven't tested buying physical devices, for pickup in meatspace. I wonder if they'd require official ID, or just proof of purchase. Anyone know?
- lxmcneill 9y ago
  The last time I went to pick up a product (AirPods) it required government issued photo ID (Australian driver's license), even though I had the Apple Store app which made the purchase installed on my phone.
  - movedx 9y ago
    That's an issue with Australian law, not Apple. You can also buy such devices overseas.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Ah, thanks. What sorts of purchases in Australia require ID?
      - markmark 9y ago
        None (well, some medicine, firearms probably, that sort of thing, not headphones). This is entirely on Apple.
        movedx 9y ago
        Bought my AirPods from Apple in the UK: no ID required. Bought my iPhone 6S from Apple in Ausralia: ID required under Australian law. Very likely the person also bought a phone with a sim/service, hence being asked for ID (under Australian law.)
Fricken 9y ago
Apple is building the tools needed to better invade people's privacy, and those tools will proliferate, regardless of how responsibly Apple uses those tools themselves. The pattern has repeated itself so many times throughout history. Technology developed with the best of intentions ends up getting used for bad.
MichaelMoser123 9y ago
I am not sure if one can trust any 'don't be evil' pledges. With Apple products one is often required to use the appleid - and this can be used for tracking purposes. Also Apple is also a media company (iTunes among other things) so it's not just a pure hardware vendor. They too sit on a big heap of user data - beware. Also they are required to comply with local regulations - and these may not be compatible with your high expectations on matters of privacy and confidentiality.

by wyc 9y ago

yaseer 9y ago

I agree with this reasoning (although I'm not particularly privacy minded, and prefer Android and most Google products to iOS and iCloud). The older tech companies like Apple and Microsoft have built business models with a different set of incentives around user data. Google, and particularly Facebook's, business models entirely rely on monetising user data. My personal 'ranking' of a companies incentives to respect privacy is something like: 1. Microsoft 2. Apple 3. Amazon 4. Google 5. Facebook Obviously this ranking is very debatable, but I agree business model incentives are a pretty good heuristic.

chickenfries 9y ago
I'm curious why you would say that Microsoft has the most respect for privacy given Windows 10 telemetry. Is there a MacOS or iOS equivalent?
- spsful 9y ago
  Nope, Apple even goes to great lengths to preserve user privacy in the data they collect (See Apple's use of differential privacy)
- alexeldeib 9y ago
  nb: ms employee I would flip MS/Apple personally, but I understand the argument from the perspective of business incentives. Microsoft's incentives don't really care about collection of telemetry, but they have a strong incentive to keep customer data secure from outside entities (e.g., businesses on MS products losing corporate data to outsiders).
- yaseer 9y ago
  I wasn't ranking the company's practices so much as their incentives, based on their business model. Microsoft derives most of its revenue from enterprise software, the others from consumers. Enterprises are generally more concerned with privacy of their data than consumers. Arguably Apple have shown better practices of late. My ranking is more what one would expect 'in theory'.
  - vacri 9y ago
    Microsoft puts ads into Windows 10. With ads comes tracking.
- userbinator 9y ago
  Pre-Win10, pre-telemetry Microsoft was pretty much "hands-off", i.e. you bought the software and then they mostly left you alone.
  - c029 9y ago
    Maybe hands off compared to now, but not compared to any other OS of the same era. If it's not activation licences (it's always amused me that performing a hardware upgrade on a cracked copy of XP was less troublesome than on a legally purchased copy), it's frequent notifications "you're not running our firewall", "you don't seem to be running our preferred antivirus", etc. And worse yet, Windows Updates often sneaks in updates for new software you didn't even request and often don't want: Bing search bars, Microsoft's shitty AV, MSN Messenger (back in the 90s), Silverlight, Windows 10(!!!) etc. Compare that to Linux, OS X, BeOS, any of the BSDs, etc and the difference is night and day. Ok, Ubuntu had a stint of including Amazon results in their search but they were relatively transparent about that and it was quickly disabled by default after the backlash they, deservingly imo, received. Windows has always been very "hands on" because it's designed for users who are very "hands off".

alecco 9y ago

There's only one way to fight back. First: Move out of Google and Facebook. In particular email. It's a good idea as they can lock you out for nothing without explanations. They've been doing this a lot recently. You are not famous so a twitter mob won't help you. Second: Since most pages out there have trackers from these companies, install Ad Nauseam extension to not just block tracking but click on everything in the background. This will ruin the information they gather about you with noise. https://adnauseam.io/ https://adnauseam.io/

paulryanrogers 9y ago
Ad Nauseam is a curious recommendation. While it devalues you individually, it also consumes bandwidth locally and remotely. Feels like accelerating the arms race.

mirimir 9y ago

I do like Apple's approach to privacy. A lot. And I love their phones. While their PC hardware is still pretty, it's getting more-and-more outdated and overpriced. But that's no longer their focus, so hey. And indeed, Apple seems to handle privacy well, in practice. I've managed to create pseudonymous accounts at Apple's online store, and fund them with anonymized Bitcoin. And I've managed to make digital purchases. However, I haven't tested buying physical devices, for pickup in meatspace. I wonder if they'd require official ID, or just proof of purchase. Anyone know?

lxmcneill 9y ago
The last time I went to pick up a product (AirPods) it required government issued photo ID (Australian driver's license), even though I had the Apple Store app which made the purchase installed on my phone.
- movedx 9y ago
  That's an issue with Australian law, not Apple. You can also buy such devices overseas.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Ah, thanks. What sorts of purchases in Australia require ID?
    - markmark 9y ago
      None (well, some medicine, firearms probably, that sort of thing, not headphones). This is entirely on Apple.
      - movedx 9y ago
        Bought my AirPods from Apple in the UK: no ID required. Bought my iPhone 6S from Apple in Ausralia: ID required under Australian law. Very likely the person also bought a phone with a sim/service, hence being asked for ID (under Australian law.)

Fricken 9y ago

Apple is building the tools needed to better invade people's privacy, and those tools will proliferate, regardless of how responsibly Apple uses those tools themselves. The pattern has repeated itself so many times throughout history. Technology developed with the best of intentions ends up getting used for bad.

MichaelMoser123 9y ago

I am not sure if one can trust any 'don't be evil' pledges. With Apple products one is often required to use the appleid - and this can be used for tracking purposes. Also Apple is also a media company (iTunes among other things) so it's not just a pure hardware vendor. They too sit on a big heap of user data - beware. Also they are required to comply with local regulations - and these may not be compatible with your high expectations on matters of privacy and confidentiality.