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I'm happy Apple is at least trying hard to deal with privacy but honestly I don't think they are doing enough, at least for me. For example, I don't really wan

I'm happy Apple is at least trying hard to deal with privacy but honestly I don't think they are doing enough, at least for me. For example, I don't really want to give most apps constant access to my photos, my camera, or my mic but I really don't have a whole lot of choice if I still want to use popular apps and services like Facebook, Instagram, Messenger, Hangouts, Line, WhatsApp etc.. I really wish that every time they wanted a photo they had to get it through some OS level UX and they only got to see the photos I selected. As it is they get to see all my photos the moment I want to give them a single photo. Similarly if I take a photo in one of them they require permission to read all my photos when all I want them to be able to do is save the photo. As for the Camera I don't give any of those apps access to the camera because I don't trust them not to spy on me in some way (I assume camera = mic access so they could be doing the subsonic listening for ads things etc...). Instead I take the picture with the built in app then access that picture from the app I want to use the picture in. Of course that leads to the problem above. Mic access is more problematic. I don't want any of them to have mic access when I'm not using the mic function directly but I can't talk to my friends who use all those services to call me if I don't give the apps mic access. I feel like if Apple was more serious about privacy they'd handle these issues in some way. The photo one seems mostly straight forward for most use cases. Don't let the app access them at all, only the OS. The camera one is less straight forward. I get that there are innovative things apps can do with the cameras by using them directly. On the other hand most of the current use cases could be handled by letting the OS access the camera only, not the app, and then just giving the result to the app.

guyfawkes303 9y ago
I think you mis-understand how iOS privacy controls work. An app doesn't get to 'see all your photos' just because you grant photo access, you still have to select which photos to put in the app. Same goes for camera, that just let's the app pull up the camera interface, not be able to access it 24/7 for whatever purpose they want. Same with the mic.
- LeoPanthera 9y ago
  I don't think this is correct. The Facebook app regularly shows me all the photos I have taken today and asks if I want to post any of them.
  - tentaTherapist 9y ago
    Honestly that sounds really creepy.
    - killjoywashere 9y ago
      Of the 6 apps under discussion by greggman, 4 are Facebook properties. Facebook is creepy.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    The Facebook mobile website can't do any of this, is just as functional, and easier on your battery life. I highly recommend it!
  - odammit 9y ago
    I can't tell you how many times I've definitely had a photo show up in the "do you want to post this" preview that I most certainly would never want to post. I feel like I'm having a heart attack every time thinking I posted it already. That feature sucks.
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      uninstalls app and uses website
- greggman 9y ago
  The apps do get permission to see all photos. How else would facebook or google photos automatically upload all your photos. Both apps have the option to do this. It requires no extra permissions on your photos and you don't have to select anything. It just requires giving permission once to "photos"
hmmiwonder 9y ago
> they require permission to read all my photos when all I want them to be able to do is save the photo I don't think this is true though. From the code I've seen you only get returned the single UIPhoto the user chose. also remember you can revoke permissions at any time via Settings.
- greggman 9y ago
  The apps are presenting their own UIs showing all the photos. They also have options to upload all the photos in the background. They clearly get permission to access all the photos. Going to settings doesn't help 1) Giving an app permission to access the photos and then revoke it when I'm done doesn't prevent the app from accessing as many photos as it pleases until I revoke access. In the time it would take for me to give an app access, select a photo, and then revoke the app could easily have looked at 10s or 100s of photos. Add some ML in there for their ad targeting 2) With the Mic off I can't receive calls in any of the messaging apps. If iOS asked each time then that issue would go away but as it is I need to leave on mic support or miss calls. I suppose I could miss the first call, turn on mic support, return the call, turn off mic support. Still, I'd argue if Apple wanted to be even more serious about privacy they wouldn't allow apps to have unrestricted access to the mic as they do because it makes the burden of trying to prevent spying pretty cumbersome.
  - hmmiwonder 9y ago
    You are correct, thanks for educating me!
greggman 9y ago
Thinking about it some more. For Camera and Mic they could have the option to "ask the user" every time and revoke that permission if the top is not the front app after a minute or so. That would at least prevent using the camera and mic when the user has not recently given permission. Whether people would use it or not I don't know. I would.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > Whether people would use it or not I don't know. I would. They could allow an app in their app store to provide this functionality to users who want it.
davidiach 9y ago
That's actually quite a sensible proposal. I wish the implement it. I often asked myself what happens when I give an app access to my photos. Can that app upload all my photos to their servers? The same question for things like calendar, address book, health data etc.
odammit 9y ago
No offense, but I guarantee nobody wants to spy on you. Mark is definitely not sitting around thinking "ayyyyy what's Gregg up to?"
- phubbard 9y ago
  True but incomplete. FB and similar make money on bulk collection. They do care but mostly in the aggregate. More data is directly related to more ad revenue.
spsful 9y ago
I agree with this but just so you know mic and camera access are two different things and iOS users get two different prompts if an app wants camera AND mic access
chillaxtian 9y ago
They actually are changing the Photos privacy defaults in iOS 11: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/505/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/505/ Apps won’t need to ask for permission to your entire library - the Photo picker will just appear, and only user selected photos will be available to the app. On the iOS 11 GM at the moment, Facebook still seems to need access to my entire library. So perhaps it is only for apps that link against iOS 11. Guess we’ll see soon.
dpkonofa 9y ago
I don't really follow how that's something that Apple needs to change. You either want to use the apps or you don't. If you don't, just don't download them or don't give them access. If your friends absolutely have to use the apps, then they clearly don't care about the same things you do and you need to convince them to use something else that you are ok with using. I guess I just don't understand why Apple needs to put things in place to allow you to work with companies you don't want to work with.
- rrix2 9y ago
  Free Scenario: I install a photo sharing app. I use it to only post photos that I take while going on hikes or of my food. Those are always in an Album called "foodpics" or similar, and every time I open their app, I select the "foodpics" folder, then the image inside of it and then go through the app's upload flow. Why should the photo app get access to the rest of my library of photos, like the ones in "business receipts" or "my son" that I would never upload to said photo sharing site? Sometimes you want to use the app, but you don't want it to have a world-view of your phone. In a perfect world the photo sharing app should only get access to the individual photos that I choose to share with it (either through the Photos app or an OS-level file selector)
  - dpkonofa 9y ago
    Sure... but you don't have to use the app. That's the point. If that's a deal-breaker for you, then don't use the app.
- StanislavPetrov 9y ago
  >I guess I just don't understand why Apple needs to put things in place to allow you to work with companies you don't want to work with. What's not to understand? Apple is selling you the phone. Its in Apple's interest to put as many features on the phone as potential buyers might be interested in. Allowing the owner's of a device to control access to different parts of a device rather than 3rd party software is not just good business practice, its common sense.

guyfawkes303 9y ago

I think you mis-understand how iOS privacy controls work. An app doesn't get to 'see all your photos' just because you grant photo access, you still have to select which photos to put in the app. Same goes for camera, that just let's the app pull up the camera interface, not be able to access it 24/7 for whatever purpose they want. Same with the mic.

LeoPanthera 9y ago
I don't think this is correct. The Facebook app regularly shows me all the photos I have taken today and asks if I want to post any of them.
- tentaTherapist 9y ago
  Honestly that sounds really creepy.
  - killjoywashere 9y ago
    Of the 6 apps under discussion by greggman, 4 are Facebook properties. Facebook is creepy.
- mattnewton 9y ago
  The Facebook mobile website can't do any of this, is just as functional, and easier on your battery life. I highly recommend it!
- odammit 9y ago
  I can't tell you how many times I've definitely had a photo show up in the "do you want to post this" preview that I most certainly would never want to post. I feel like I'm having a heart attack every time thinking I posted it already. That feature sucks.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    uninstalls app and uses website
greggman 9y ago
The apps do get permission to see all photos. How else would facebook or google photos automatically upload all your photos. Both apps have the option to do this. It requires no extra permissions on your photos and you don't have to select anything. It just requires giving permission once to "photos"

hmmiwonder 9y ago

> they require permission to read all my photos when all I want them to be able to do is save the photo I don't think this is true though. From the code I've seen you only get returned the single UIPhoto the user chose. also remember you can revoke permissions at any time via Settings.

greggman 9y ago
The apps are presenting their own UIs showing all the photos. They also have options to upload all the photos in the background. They clearly get permission to access all the photos. Going to settings doesn't help 1) Giving an app permission to access the photos and then revoke it when I'm done doesn't prevent the app from accessing as many photos as it pleases until I revoke access. In the time it would take for me to give an app access, select a photo, and then revoke the app could easily have looked at 10s or 100s of photos. Add some ML in there for their ad targeting 2) With the Mic off I can't receive calls in any of the messaging apps. If iOS asked each time then that issue would go away but as it is I need to leave on mic support or miss calls. I suppose I could miss the first call, turn on mic support, return the call, turn off mic support. Still, I'd argue if Apple wanted to be even more serious about privacy they wouldn't allow apps to have unrestricted access to the mic as they do because it makes the burden of trying to prevent spying pretty cumbersome.
- hmmiwonder 9y ago
  You are correct, thanks for educating me!

greggman 9y ago

Thinking about it some more. For Camera and Mic they could have the option to "ask the user" every time and revoke that permission if the top is not the front app after a minute or so. That would at least prevent using the camera and mic when the user has not recently given permission. Whether people would use it or not I don't know. I would.

forapurpose 9y ago
> Whether people would use it or not I don't know. I would. They could allow an app in their app store to provide this functionality to users who want it.

davidiach 9y ago

That's actually quite a sensible proposal. I wish the implement it. I often asked myself what happens when I give an app access to my photos. Can that app upload all my photos to their servers? The same question for things like calendar, address book, health data etc.

odammit 9y ago

No offense, but I guarantee nobody wants to spy on you. Mark is definitely not sitting around thinking "ayyyyy what's Gregg up to?"

phubbard 9y ago
True but incomplete. FB and similar make money on bulk collection. They do care but mostly in the aggregate. More data is directly related to more ad revenue.

spsful 9y ago

I agree with this but just so you know mic and camera access are two different things and iOS users get two different prompts if an app wants camera AND mic access

chillaxtian 9y ago

They actually are changing the Photos privacy defaults in iOS 11: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/505/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/505/ Apps won’t need to ask for permission to your entire library - the Photo picker will just appear, and only user selected photos will be available to the app. On the iOS 11 GM at the moment, Facebook still seems to need access to my entire library. So perhaps it is only for apps that link against iOS 11. Guess we’ll see soon.

dpkonofa 9y ago

I don't really follow how that's something that Apple needs to change. You either want to use the apps or you don't. If you don't, just don't download them or don't give them access. If your friends absolutely have to use the apps, then they clearly don't care about the same things you do and you need to convince them to use something else that you are ok with using. I guess I just don't understand why Apple needs to put things in place to allow you to work with companies you don't want to work with.

rrix2 9y ago
Free Scenario: I install a photo sharing app. I use it to only post photos that I take while going on hikes or of my food. Those are always in an Album called "foodpics" or similar, and every time I open their app, I select the "foodpics" folder, then the image inside of it and then go through the app's upload flow. Why should the photo app get access to the rest of my library of photos, like the ones in "business receipts" or "my son" that I would never upload to said photo sharing site? Sometimes you want to use the app, but you don't want it to have a world-view of your phone. In a perfect world the photo sharing app should only get access to the individual photos that I choose to share with it (either through the Photos app or an OS-level file selector)
- dpkonofa 9y ago
  Sure... but you don't have to use the app. That's the point. If that's a deal-breaker for you, then don't use the app.
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
>I guess I just don't understand why Apple needs to put things in place to allow you to work with companies you don't want to work with. What's not to understand? Apple is selling you the phone. Its in Apple's interest to put as many features on the phone as potential buyers might be interested in. Allowing the owner's of a device to control access to different parts of a device rather than 3rd party software is not just good business practice, its common sense.