8 ms·

> "One of the fundamentals of markets is that value needs to go to work." Indeed. And since there is little real (read: economically useful) work that Bitcoin

> "One of the fundamentals of markets is that value needs to go to work." Indeed. And since there is little real (read: economically useful) work that Bitcoin can actually do, speculators pile them into other types of coin that are, at best, an additional level of indirection between Bitcoin and real value. Hm, creating complicated financial derivatives to hide the underlying non-viability of the core product. Now why does that sound familiar.

pjmorris 9y ago
Next thing you know, someone will be making $500,000 ICO loans to retail workers, and selling on the loans to be bundled into AAA-rated securitizations. I wonder if Moody's rates ICO's?
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  ... and developers will be paid in 'coins', issued by the company. "Join my startup, your salary is 100 Million Kangaroo coins per year. We call them 'ru-bucks' because we're cool like that."
  - im3w1l 9y ago
    Many devs people get part of their compensation in stock grants. For stocks that pay no dividend.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      In most cases the difference between stock in a start-up and Ru-bucks is negligible.
      - alexasmyths 9y ago
        I will admit that in many cases, especially if the company does not do well, stocks = ru-bucks. But if a company does well, stocks >>> ru-bucks. Or at least they should ... Sadly, I actually believe my little satire will become reality very soon, as I believe coins will be handed out as comp ... I'll bet a Kik, very soon.
        Waterluvian 9y ago
        And if people accept that as payment, what does it mean? Too many tech grads? Too few tech jobs?
        1337biz 9y ago
        The obvious answer is of cause: we need more visas for developers
        kenbaylor 9y ago
        I spent the weekend with some employees of a company that did an ICO earlier this year, and YES they are paid in the ICO coins.
      - rdl 9y ago
        Ru-bucks are actually liquid, and have a market (even if thinly traded), so you could at least hope to value them.
      - im3w1l 9y ago
        Out of Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google only Apple pays a dividend. EDIT: Point being that this isn't just a start up thing.
        alexasmyths 9y ago
        Dividends do not matter. A companies assets belong the shareholder - so if the money is in Google's bank account or transferred to the investors bank account, it the same thing, technically. Imagine a corp with $10B in the bank, valued at $25B, implying 'future returns in present dollars' are worth $15B. Add that to $10B in the bank you get $25B. Now - if they company paid out $10B in a massive dividend - what is the company now worth? --> $15B. When money comes out of the company, the value of the company goes down by that amount. Technically. Obviously it's more complicated, and it relates a lot to whether or not a company can re-invest the company better than an investor could otherwise. But in the end, it's all baked into the value of the stock. So it really doesn't matter that much. Most startups don't pay dividends because cash is much more valuable, and they have places to spend it. A company sitting on a hoard of cash, probably should pay dividends, otherwise, it's operating ratios aren't going to be that great. Ex: MSFT bank account was so big at one point, analysts had to treat MS as 1/2 a 'software company' and 1/2 a 'hedge fund' - because the performance of MS was only about 1/2 'how their business was doing' - the rest of their stock performance was just 'how their fund managers were doing'. 5% returns on MS's investments, are maybe worse than the bigger returns they get by investing in their business. Only companies with big cash piles - or - really predictable set of earnings pay dividends. If you are a massive company that sells 'crackers' and have been around for 120 years, and your business doesn't change much and are healthy - you probably pay dividends. Startups - not so much.
B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
>> "One of the fundamentals of markets is that value needs to go to work." > Indeed. Art? Modern art is rather like bitcoin - mostly pointless work of no value with pseudo-randomly attributed value, used for portable hoards of those capable of dealing in it.
jwilliams 9y ago
> And since there is little real (read: economically useful) work that Bitcoin can actually do Curious - Why do you feel that's an effect of Bitcoin? Arguably you could make that same statement with "USD" instead of BTC.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  USD can satisfy your tax burden to the US government. It is the only object that can do so.

pjmorris 9y ago

Next thing you know, someone will be making $500,000 ICO loans to retail workers, and selling on the loans to be bundled into AAA-rated securitizations. I wonder if Moody's rates ICO's?

alexasmyths 9y ago
... and developers will be paid in 'coins', issued by the company. "Join my startup, your salary is 100 Million Kangaroo coins per year. We call them 'ru-bucks' because we're cool like that."
- im3w1l 9y ago
  Many devs people get part of their compensation in stock grants. For stocks that pay no dividend.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    In most cases the difference between stock in a start-up and Ru-bucks is negligible.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      I will admit that in many cases, especially if the company does not do well, stocks = ru-bucks. But if a company does well, stocks >>> ru-bucks. Or at least they should ... Sadly, I actually believe my little satire will become reality very soon, as I believe coins will be handed out as comp ... I'll bet a Kik, very soon.
      - Waterluvian 9y ago
        And if people accept that as payment, what does it mean? Too many tech grads? Too few tech jobs?
        1337biz 9y ago
        The obvious answer is of cause: we need more visas for developers
      - kenbaylor 9y ago
        I spent the weekend with some employees of a company that did an ICO earlier this year, and YES they are paid in the ICO coins.
    - rdl 9y ago
      Ru-bucks are actually liquid, and have a market (even if thinly traded), so you could at least hope to value them.
    - im3w1l 9y ago
      Out of Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google only Apple pays a dividend. EDIT: Point being that this isn't just a start up thing.
      - alexasmyths 9y ago
        Dividends do not matter. A companies assets belong the shareholder - so if the money is in Google's bank account or transferred to the investors bank account, it the same thing, technically. Imagine a corp with $10B in the bank, valued at $25B, implying 'future returns in present dollars' are worth $15B. Add that to $10B in the bank you get $25B. Now - if they company paid out $10B in a massive dividend - what is the company now worth? --> $15B. When money comes out of the company, the value of the company goes down by that amount. Technically. Obviously it's more complicated, and it relates a lot to whether or not a company can re-invest the company better than an investor could otherwise. But in the end, it's all baked into the value of the stock. So it really doesn't matter that much. Most startups don't pay dividends because cash is much more valuable, and they have places to spend it. A company sitting on a hoard of cash, probably should pay dividends, otherwise, it's operating ratios aren't going to be that great. Ex: MSFT bank account was so big at one point, analysts had to treat MS as 1/2 a 'software company' and 1/2 a 'hedge fund' - because the performance of MS was only about 1/2 'how their business was doing' - the rest of their stock performance was just 'how their fund managers were doing'. 5% returns on MS's investments, are maybe worse than the bigger returns they get by investing in their business. Only companies with big cash piles - or - really predictable set of earnings pay dividends. If you are a massive company that sells 'crackers' and have been around for 120 years, and your business doesn't change much and are healthy - you probably pay dividends. Startups - not so much.

B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago

>> "One of the fundamentals of markets is that value needs to go to work." > Indeed. Art? Modern art is rather like bitcoin - mostly pointless work of no value with pseudo-randomly attributed value, used for portable hoards of those capable of dealing in it.

jwilliams 9y ago

> And since there is little real (read: economically useful) work that Bitcoin can actually do Curious - Why do you feel that's an effect of Bitcoin? Arguably you could make that same statement with "USD" instead of BTC.

umanwizard 9y ago
USD can satisfy your tax burden to the US government. It is the only object that can do so.