3 ms·

I can understand the "it's not just one comment" angle, this kind of makes sense. Although, I'm still not convinced everything taken as sexual harassment is act

I can understand the "it's not just one comment" angle, this kind of makes sense. Although, I'm still not convinced everything taken as sexual harassment is actually such, at least to the extent external government intervention is need. With intimidation the words are a non issue, it's just vocalized intention. With verbal harassment the words are all that matter, there is no intention. If there is intention, then it's a threat not verbal harassment. My concern overall is that in the long term government and policy will be such that even so much as giving a simple compliment like, "I like your shirt", gets taken as punishable sexual harassment because someone find this sexually charged based on their own life experiences. My personal hope is that sexuality will become less of a taboo, and people will become less sensitive to it. This is jut my preference though.

solidsnack9000 9y ago
> With intimidation the words are a non issue, it's just vocalized intention. With verbal harassment the words are all that matter, there is no intention. What is it about harassment that bothers people? Why don’t people like being subject to sexual harassment?
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  >What is it about harassment that bothers people? Why don’t people like being subject to sexual harassment? I can't answer this question. That's my point, I have no clue why people care about what they perceive as sexual comments being directed at them. It just doesn't make sense to me. Here is my thought process; if words can't hurt people physically, and I personally don't care about anything anyone says to me, there must be other people in this world that feel the same way. If this is the case than harassment must be on some level subjective, but a objective analysis of common reality would come to the same conclusion. It's a simple fact that what is sexual harassment in America today is not the same as it was 10 years ago, or the same as it is for a tribe in Africa, and I don't believe an objective definition of sexual harassment could ever exist. Therefore sexual harassment can not be universally banned in the workplace or otherwise. At least not in a non authoritarian rights based system. Of course if all you care about is your perception and your subjective reality, and you believe it's ok to push this on people, my point is moot. I just lean towards basic rights and leaving the subjective stuff alone. It all depends on how you view reality. Personally I feel reality has a common base of extremely simple truths (science/normative ethics), and all else is essentially arbitrary. Is this right or wrong? I'm clearly not qualified to say, nor is anyone else. Edit: It's like trying to find an answer to the equation "2+2" if you don't know anything about math. Some people say the answer is between 14 and 20, some really strange people may say it's 2,000 and they know it for sure. Personally, I think it's best to say it's between negative and positive infinity and wait for additional information. The question of the ethics of sexual harassment in the workplace is "2+2", and nobody on earth really know anything about "math" in this regard. So defer to the least restrictive answer.
  - solidsnack9000 9y ago
    Well, harassment is very threatening. The other person clearly wants something. They aren't being nice about it or even straightforward. They have usually been around longer and sit higher in the organization. If you don't give them what they want -- they might make your life hell until you quit. Or they might not. Hard to say. What do you do? This happens every week. People who engage in harassment can be quite masterful about their use of language. It's rare indeed for them to actually come out and say, they want to trade favors. What is bothersome is not the language but the underlying goal. What is intimidating is different in different countries but nearly every country has laws on the books against assault (in law: "a threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact"). Your standard for what can be made law in a "non authoritarian" system is awfully high. It's okay for different countries and cultures to have different laws.
    - neveroffensive 9y ago
      You're kind of making an unsupported leap asserting that sexually harassing comments always have intentions behind them (Edit: and by this I mean intentions to assault/blackmail, not intentions to engage in something consensual). I mean there is a distinction between sexual attraction and the intention to actually force physical assault. Obviously it's not authoritarian to stop someone who's actually threatening someone, or who is strait up assaulting someone. I feel pretty strawmanned in that regard. I just disagree that sexual harassment always stems from an intention to physically engage regardless of the other persons desires. I just don't see how a comment like, "I intend to masturbate to you", guarantees an intentional threat. I see no evidence that the individuals here would have physically harmed the female in question. The discussion of forcing sex through power is kind of a separate issue more alone the lines of blackmail than harassment. Of course someone saying, "Nice behind", wants something. So dose the guy who compliments your shirt, potentially. We all feel desire for someone we find attractive, and sure some people may vocalize this desire in ways perceived pathetic and unacceptable, and some won't. The mere feeling of desire and the vocalization of it dose not guarantee an intention to physically assault. Nor dose it guarantee blackmail for sex. I think you have an extremely bleak view of humanity if you think most people are capable of going to the extent of assaulting/blackmailing someone just because they vocalize their attraction. I just don't see this... Edit: I feel like I'm really coming out in support of sexual harassment here. I hope you realize this isn't my intention. I'm just trying to argue against the endless tide of restrictions I feel are arbitrarily calibrated to the point where they may stifle life itself for many people.
solidsnack9000 9y ago
> My personal hope is that sexuality will become less of a taboo, and people will become less sensitive to it. This is jut my preference though. I fear that you are your own worst enemy here. This issue with harassment is not simply that there is something sexually charged about it, but that it is coercive and unwelcome. If we don't cultivate a culture -- corporate or otherwise -- that recognizes the distinction, then people will be very sensitive about sexuality in general.
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  Coercive comments being objectively wrong I can understand, but this is not the case 100% of the time. Obviously, coercing someone into sex is borderline immoral (Edit: I looked up the actual definition of coercing, and would actually say it's completely immoral, since it's unwanted), and if there is any threat or power behind it it's essentially blackmail. What I don't understand is the unwelcome side of things. This is where my argument stems from. There are a lot of things that large portions of society feel are unwelcome that others feel are perfectly acceptable. I look back at history, with all the "unwelcome" things we have arbitrarily restricted that resulted in oppression, and I feel like we are dangerously close to making the same mistakes. I mean there was a time when scientific discourse was very "unwelcome", and it didn't really benefit society much. Is saying, "Nice behind", the same as discussing mathematics, of course not. However, I still feel like we are closing in on a world where any expression of sexuality or attraction is disallowed. Which is think is a fine thing for a company to opt for, but not something we should be forcing. If a company want's to ban all sexuality and non professional interaction, forcing their employees to wear uniforms and only talk directly about business, this is fine. However, if a company want's to have bikini/board shorts day, and allow consensual non coerced sex in the office, I also think this is fine. Because the simple truth is, not everybody find this unwelcome. I'm hoping someday people will realize that none of this is objective, and there are actually perspectives dramatically different than their own. It's not just one person either, and there is a spectrum. We need to stop forcing our narrow perspectives on others, and learn to live and let live. Edit: If people feel they can't work at a place with a certain set of rules or philosophies then they need to simply move on. Should a Muslim coffee shop not be allowed to print verses on their cups because their American workers find it offensive and unwelcome?

solidsnack9000 9y ago

> With intimidation the words are a non issue, it's just vocalized intention. With verbal harassment the words are all that matter, there is no intention. What is it about harassment that bothers people? Why don’t people like being subject to sexual harassment?

neveroffensive 9y ago
>What is it about harassment that bothers people? Why don’t people like being subject to sexual harassment? I can't answer this question. That's my point, I have no clue why people care about what they perceive as sexual comments being directed at them. It just doesn't make sense to me. Here is my thought process; if words can't hurt people physically, and I personally don't care about anything anyone says to me, there must be other people in this world that feel the same way. If this is the case than harassment must be on some level subjective, but a objective analysis of common reality would come to the same conclusion. It's a simple fact that what is sexual harassment in America today is not the same as it was 10 years ago, or the same as it is for a tribe in Africa, and I don't believe an objective definition of sexual harassment could ever exist. Therefore sexual harassment can not be universally banned in the workplace or otherwise. At least not in a non authoritarian rights based system. Of course if all you care about is your perception and your subjective reality, and you believe it's ok to push this on people, my point is moot. I just lean towards basic rights and leaving the subjective stuff alone. It all depends on how you view reality. Personally I feel reality has a common base of extremely simple truths (science/normative ethics), and all else is essentially arbitrary. Is this right or wrong? I'm clearly not qualified to say, nor is anyone else. Edit: It's like trying to find an answer to the equation "2+2" if you don't know anything about math. Some people say the answer is between 14 and 20, some really strange people may say it's 2,000 and they know it for sure. Personally, I think it's best to say it's between negative and positive infinity and wait for additional information. The question of the ethics of sexual harassment in the workplace is "2+2", and nobody on earth really know anything about "math" in this regard. So defer to the least restrictive answer.
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  Well, harassment is very threatening. The other person clearly wants something. They aren't being nice about it or even straightforward. They have usually been around longer and sit higher in the organization. If you don't give them what they want -- they might make your life hell until you quit. Or they might not. Hard to say. What do you do? This happens every week. People who engage in harassment can be quite masterful about their use of language. It's rare indeed for them to actually come out and say, they want to trade favors. What is bothersome is not the language but the underlying goal. What is intimidating is different in different countries but nearly every country has laws on the books against assault (in law: "a threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact"). Your standard for what can be made law in a "non authoritarian" system is awfully high. It's okay for different countries and cultures to have different laws.
  - neveroffensive 9y ago
    You're kind of making an unsupported leap asserting that sexually harassing comments always have intentions behind them (Edit: and by this I mean intentions to assault/blackmail, not intentions to engage in something consensual). I mean there is a distinction between sexual attraction and the intention to actually force physical assault. Obviously it's not authoritarian to stop someone who's actually threatening someone, or who is strait up assaulting someone. I feel pretty strawmanned in that regard. I just disagree that sexual harassment always stems from an intention to physically engage regardless of the other persons desires. I just don't see how a comment like, "I intend to masturbate to you", guarantees an intentional threat. I see no evidence that the individuals here would have physically harmed the female in question. The discussion of forcing sex through power is kind of a separate issue more alone the lines of blackmail than harassment. Of course someone saying, "Nice behind", wants something. So dose the guy who compliments your shirt, potentially. We all feel desire for someone we find attractive, and sure some people may vocalize this desire in ways perceived pathetic and unacceptable, and some won't. The mere feeling of desire and the vocalization of it dose not guarantee an intention to physically assault. Nor dose it guarantee blackmail for sex. I think you have an extremely bleak view of humanity if you think most people are capable of going to the extent of assaulting/blackmailing someone just because they vocalize their attraction. I just don't see this... Edit: I feel like I'm really coming out in support of sexual harassment here. I hope you realize this isn't my intention. I'm just trying to argue against the endless tide of restrictions I feel are arbitrarily calibrated to the point where they may stifle life itself for many people.

solidsnack9000 9y ago

> My personal hope is that sexuality will become less of a taboo, and people will become less sensitive to it. This is jut my preference though. I fear that you are your own worst enemy here. This issue with harassment is not simply that there is something sexually charged about it, but that it is coercive and unwelcome. If we don't cultivate a culture -- corporate or otherwise -- that recognizes the distinction, then people will be very sensitive about sexuality in general.

neveroffensive 9y ago
Coercive comments being objectively wrong I can understand, but this is not the case 100% of the time. Obviously, coercing someone into sex is borderline immoral (Edit: I looked up the actual definition of coercing, and would actually say it's completely immoral, since it's unwanted), and if there is any threat or power behind it it's essentially blackmail. What I don't understand is the unwelcome side of things. This is where my argument stems from. There are a lot of things that large portions of society feel are unwelcome that others feel are perfectly acceptable. I look back at history, with all the "unwelcome" things we have arbitrarily restricted that resulted in oppression, and I feel like we are dangerously close to making the same mistakes. I mean there was a time when scientific discourse was very "unwelcome", and it didn't really benefit society much. Is saying, "Nice behind", the same as discussing mathematics, of course not. However, I still feel like we are closing in on a world where any expression of sexuality or attraction is disallowed. Which is think is a fine thing for a company to opt for, but not something we should be forcing. If a company want's to ban all sexuality and non professional interaction, forcing their employees to wear uniforms and only talk directly about business, this is fine. However, if a company want's to have bikini/board shorts day, and allow consensual non coerced sex in the office, I also think this is fine. Because the simple truth is, not everybody find this unwelcome. I'm hoping someday people will realize that none of this is objective, and there are actually perspectives dramatically different than their own. It's not just one person either, and there is a spectrum. We need to stop forcing our narrow perspectives on others, and learn to live and let live. Edit: If people feel they can't work at a place with a certain set of rules or philosophies then they need to simply move on. Should a Muslim coffee shop not be allowed to print verses on their cups because their American workers find it offensive and unwelcome?