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> Women earned the right to vote in 1919; And when did men earn the right to vote? > Women are still considered property of their fathers and husbands in many

by adekok 9y ago

> Women earned the right to vote in 1919; And when did men earn the right to vote? > Women are still considered property of their fathers and husbands in many parts of the world. So... this means that women in the US are oppressed. Right? Right?

foldr 9y ago
>And when did men earn the right to vote? That's a bit of a complicated question in the case of the USA, but the passing of the fifteenth amendment in 1870 guaranteed the right to vote for a large segment of the male population at a time when no women whatsoever had the right to vote. And of course, at least some men had the right to vote right from the foundation of the US.
- adekok 9y ago
  So... the men who couldn't vote weren't oppressed? Or... women are oppressed today because your great-grandmother didn't have the right to vote? Color me unconvinced. If the best argument you have is to go back 100 years, it shows that you know that women aren't oppressed by men today. See, I've looked into this. Pretty much every talking point (i.e. slogan repeated ad nauseaum) is either half of the truth, or an outright lie. And there are massive parallels between certain ideologies. The idea that people are "oppressed" as a class is originally Marxist, and has been co-opted by other ideologies. Who (wink wink) aren't Marxist. Despite sharing ideologies, coordinating protests together, etc. I don't follow your ideology for the same reason I'm not a Marxist. Both are lies.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Note the word "historically" in my original post. I don't know why you keep going on about ideologies. I haven't expressed any particular ideology in any of my posts.
    - adekok 9y ago
      > I haven't expressed any particular ideology in any of my posts. The idea that women are oppressed by men is an ideology. Because it's based on ideas, and not on reality. If it was based on reality, it would be called "science". Or maybe "facts". Instead, it's based on "just so" stories that people tell each other. Like "the Jews are rich because they stole from the white people". It's a lie. All of these ideologies are the same. They use the same talking points. The same BS rhetoric about "oppressors" and "oppressed". The only things that change are the names of the oppressors (men / jews / the rich) and the names of the oppressed (women / white people / the poor). The ideologies are otherwise substantially similar. Since you're arguing over this. Let's talk details: * men in the US do not have the right to vote. Huh? How can I say this? That sounds crazy! Well... because they have historically not had the right to vote unless the registered for selective services. So men in the US did not have the unrestricted right to vote. The selective service act was fought in court, and men lost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Draft_Law_Cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Draft_Law_Cases The court held that the draft was an obligation citizens had, in return for the right to vote. Women, of course, have had no restrictions on their right to vote. And who gave women the right to vote? The evil, patriarchal, oppressive, misogynistic... men. Yes, the men who "oppress" women gave them the right to vote. Without asking them to take on the social burdens that were demanded of men. So who's oppressed, really? The people who got conscripted, and died without having the vote? Or the people sitting at home, secure in the knowledge they'll never have to break a nail supporting their country?
      - foldr 9y ago
        >And who gave women the right to vote? The evil, patriarchal, oppressive, misogynistic... men. Yes. Women were not able to get the vote until men assented to it. That is a textbook example of men oppressing women. You might as well argue that slaves weren't oppressed because they were eventually "given" their freedom by white men.
- belorn 9y ago
  When did male-only conscription start in the US? For a very long time most countries, including the USA, had laws that forced men to go into wars and die. In the roman empire, voting was a privilege only for those that made the sacrifice to serve in the military. The US stopped forcing men into war in 1973, 54 years after women got the right to vote. I can't think of many things more oppressive then being force to go to a war and fight against your will. What would you pick between forced conscription during war time (before 1919, so consider medical care and death rate during world war 1) or no right to vote? I know what I would prefer in 1917.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Conscription is male only because most men thought that women weren't suitable as soldiers. It's men who decided not to conscript women, and it's also men who decided whether or not women should be allowed to vote. So whatever you think about male only conscription, it's clearly not an instance of women oppressing men.

by adekok 9y ago

foldr 9y ago

>And when did men earn the right to vote? That's a bit of a complicated question in the case of the USA, but the passing of the fifteenth amendment in 1870 guaranteed the right to vote for a large segment of the male population at a time when no women whatsoever had the right to vote. And of course, at least some men had the right to vote right from the foundation of the US.

adekok 9y ago
So... the men who couldn't vote weren't oppressed? Or... women are oppressed today because your great-grandmother didn't have the right to vote? Color me unconvinced. If the best argument you have is to go back 100 years, it shows that you know that women aren't oppressed by men today. See, I've looked into this. Pretty much every talking point (i.e. slogan repeated ad nauseaum) is either half of the truth, or an outright lie. And there are massive parallels between certain ideologies. The idea that people are "oppressed" as a class is originally Marxist, and has been co-opted by other ideologies. Who (wink wink) aren't Marxist. Despite sharing ideologies, coordinating protests together, etc. I don't follow your ideology for the same reason I'm not a Marxist. Both are lies.
- foldr 9y ago
  Note the word "historically" in my original post. I don't know why you keep going on about ideologies. I haven't expressed any particular ideology in any of my posts.
  - adekok 9y ago
    > I haven't expressed any particular ideology in any of my posts. The idea that women are oppressed by men is an ideology. Because it's based on ideas, and not on reality. If it was based on reality, it would be called "science". Or maybe "facts". Instead, it's based on "just so" stories that people tell each other. Like "the Jews are rich because they stole from the white people". It's a lie. All of these ideologies are the same. They use the same talking points. The same BS rhetoric about "oppressors" and "oppressed". The only things that change are the names of the oppressors (men / jews / the rich) and the names of the oppressed (women / white people / the poor). The ideologies are otherwise substantially similar. Since you're arguing over this. Let's talk details: * men in the US do not have the right to vote. Huh? How can I say this? That sounds crazy! Well... because they have historically not had the right to vote unless the registered for selective services. So men in the US did not have the unrestricted right to vote. The selective service act was fought in court, and men lost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Draft_Law_Cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Draft_Law_Cases The court held that the draft was an obligation citizens had, in return for the right to vote. Women, of course, have had no restrictions on their right to vote. And who gave women the right to vote? The evil, patriarchal, oppressive, misogynistic... men. Yes, the men who "oppress" women gave them the right to vote. Without asking them to take on the social burdens that were demanded of men. So who's oppressed, really? The people who got conscripted, and died without having the vote? Or the people sitting at home, secure in the knowledge they'll never have to break a nail supporting their country?
    - foldr 9y ago
      >And who gave women the right to vote? The evil, patriarchal, oppressive, misogynistic... men. Yes. Women were not able to get the vote until men assented to it. That is a textbook example of men oppressing women. You might as well argue that slaves weren't oppressed because they were eventually "given" their freedom by white men.
belorn 9y ago
When did male-only conscription start in the US? For a very long time most countries, including the USA, had laws that forced men to go into wars and die. In the roman empire, voting was a privilege only for those that made the sacrifice to serve in the military. The US stopped forcing men into war in 1973, 54 years after women got the right to vote. I can't think of many things more oppressive then being force to go to a war and fight against your will. What would you pick between forced conscription during war time (before 1919, so consider medical care and death rate during world war 1) or no right to vote? I know what I would prefer in 1917.
- foldr 9y ago
  Conscription is male only because most men thought that women weren't suitable as soldiers. It's men who decided not to conscript women, and it's also men who decided whether or not women should be allowed to vote. So whatever you think about male only conscription, it's clearly not an instance of women oppressing men.