7 ms·

Fixed, thanks. What do you feel are some sensible systems used by the rest of the world? One that's hopefully hard enough to break but easy enough not to cause

Fixed, thanks. What do you feel are some sensible systems used by the rest of the world? One that's hopefully hard enough to break but easy enough not to cause massive hassles.

kmonsen 9y ago
Better checks by the banks, they need to take responsibility when opening accounts and not rely on the credit bureaus. This could mean slightly more expensive banking services.
user5994461 9y ago
To confirm your identify: national ID card, passport or driver license. To confirm your income: Your yearly income tax sheet, a payslip or your contract of employment. There is really no reason whatsoever for credit check and background check agencies to exist. All they do is ask for these papers anyway.
- harryh 9y ago
  It's worth noting that the perpetrator in the bloomberg article had a fake driver's license in the name of the victim. So ID cards aren't a complete solution either.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Not to mention the other documents from the GP.
  - u801e 9y ago
    Couldn't they verify the authenticity of the drivers license by contacting the department of motor vehicles? One shouldn't verify documents unless you're a member of the organization that issued them.
    - djsumdog 9y ago
      It was most likely a real license. Credit checks use the DL number. You need an SSN card to get a license or ID card and the SSN card is gained using security questions and has no photo, fingerprints or biometrics associated with it. I remember needing to get a new SSN card once and it was creepy how easy it was.
      - mgkimsal 9y ago
        Comparing photo on dl with photo from DMV might help.
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    But you get that ID card using an SSN card. Other countries have a photo attached to your nation ID card and citizen identification number (and sometimes fingerprints too). But think about America right now. Do you honestly think we could get national ID numbers? Could you imagine people being asked for a DNA swab or fingerprint to establish their identity? The blow black would be monstrous, and I don't think it'd be entirely unjustified. With 1% of our population incarcerated or on probation, with no national health care and being the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world, there is good reason for Americans not to trust their government. Add in all the fundie religious people crying "sign of the beast" and Alex Jones followers yelling "national RFID chips" and you're stuck with a situation that cannot change.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > But you get that ID card using an SSN card. Not necessarily. Not all states require an SSN in order to issue an ID. > But think about America right now. Do you honestly think we could get national ID numbers? Unfortunately (for all the reasons you mentioned and more), we're pretty close, as the REAL ID system is about to take effect. That's going to be a huge problem for people living in the states that don't issue REAL IDs. It's also going to be a problem for legal immigrants and transgender people in every state.
      - uiri 9y ago
        Not all states require an SSN in order to issue an ID. I was under the impression that every single state requires an SSN to issue a driver's license or id card in order to track and enforce child support order across state lines. Which states don't require an SSN to issue an ID? Legal immigrants have passports, and ID cards/driver's licenses from their home country. I'm not sure what will require two forms of REAL ID compliant identification.
        chimeracoder 9y ago
        > I was under the impression that every single state requires an SSN to issue a driver's license or id card in order to track and enforce child support order across state lines. Nope. If they did, the impetus behind the REAL ID act wouldn't even be relevant, because illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to obtain a drivers' license or state ID. > Which states don't require an SSN to issue an ID? California is the biggest one, and in fact, California makes it illegal to discriminate against anyone who has a driver's license but cannot show legal residency. Some states mark licenses as "not valid for identification" if they don't show legal residency, but it's usually subtle and easily overlooked or ignored. And the SSN isn't the only way to show legal residency, either. > Legal immigrants have passports, and ID cards/driver's licenses from their home country. For foreigners, passports are the only acceptable form of identification from foreign governments. Driver's licenses and other government IDs are not allowed, with the exception of driver's licenses from Canada.
- aianus 9y ago
  Credit has little to do with income. I have over $70k in various credit lines and have never shown any proof of income whatsoever. I just name a number and they accept it (after checking my all-important credit score).
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Again, that's an American thing. They will distribute credits to whoever ask for them, as much as they can just to make money out of people. In non insane countries, you are considered debt-free when you have no credit, not when you accumulate credits and pay them with one another.
    - aianus 9y ago
      Giving people credit without seeing how much they already owe and how they're repaying it is insane. Rich people can go over their heads and default just as well as poor people. There is an obvious and valid need for credit reporting agencies to exist.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > In non insane countries, you are considered debt-free when you have no credit, not when you accumulate credits and pay them with one another. I'm not sure how you think the American system works if you think that "debt-free" has any meaning other than "no balances or debts outstanding".
- alkonaut 9y ago
  We have national id + complete index of people, but still have credit check agencies. The difference is probably that here those agencies aren't somehow trying to guarantee my identity. They just answer what credit rating my identity has.
chx 9y ago
Five years on top of what you get for other crimes if you faked a government ID (in itself it can be as low as one year but combined with other crimes, it's five years). It's one good step among many.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Waterluvian 9y ago
In Canada you can't do anything meaningful without a photo driver's license or a passport. My wife got a passport just to have a quality ID. Before that she couldn't even open a chequing account.
- tmnvix 9y ago
  Ditto NZ and Aus. Also means that no national ID card or number is necessary. Seems kind of obvious to me. The use of SSN as proof of identity in the US just seems like misuse to me.
  - Waterluvian 9y ago
    There's a fantastic CGP Grey video on that. I'd search for a link but on phone.
    - tonyztan 9y ago
      https://youtu.be/Erp8IAUouus https://youtu.be/Erp8IAUouus
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Ditto NZ and Aus. Also means that no national ID card or number is necessary. Seems kind of obvious to me. The use of SSN as proof of identity in the US just seems like misuse to me. It's the same in the US too. The problem in the article is that the person had a legitimate driver's license issued in the stolen name with his own picture on it. It's not just a simple as "he had the SSN".
- ev0l 9y ago
  That's not entirly true. The branch manager has discression. I know because when I first moved to Canada I had no such ID and opened an account after asking for the branch manager.
  - Waterluvian 9y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that. I always assumed it was policy. I've spent my whole life needing a driver's license or passport when I do anything money or government related. I'm glad they can make discresionary decisions like that for special circumstances, such as someone who clearly can't have an ID or passport yet. Mind if I ask, did they ask for your passport?
cyphar 9y ago
Usually multiple forms of ID. In Australia you have a "points" system (each form of ID is worth a certain number of points and they are additive) where you need 100 points to create a bank account. This translates to a drivers license and passport, or drivers license and existing debit card, etc. In Estonia I believe the system is based on public key cryptography (every national ID has a private key that is used for signing things).
- mcguire 9y ago
  HSPD12 badges for everyone?
sfifs 9y ago
India is switching to biometric verification linked to the national identity card. The last lease agreement I registered and the last phone connection I obtained both went through the biometric verification process These are implemented as biometric two factor auth. So you show your id card, scan your finger print and validate via a code received to the registered mobile device on sms
- KGIII 9y ago
  What if you have no cell phone or computer?
  - sfifs 9y ago
    At this point, cell phone is a necessity in India to get any services. Mobile subscriber base is about 1.1 billion (1) which means almost all adults have a cell phone connection. So the question is practically moot. (1) https://www.google.com.sg/amp/m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/telecom-subscriber-base-in-india-crossed-1-12-bn-in-nov-trai/amp_articleshow/56959807.cms https://www.google.com.sg/amp/m.timesofindia.com/business/in...
    - KGIII 9y ago
      Practically moot is a varied distance from moot. I was just curious if there was an underclass that was unable to get any services. It's much the same in my country, really.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > At this point, cell phone is a necessity in India to get any services And in a delightful catch-22, Aadhaar is essentially a requirement for obtaining a cell phone. You can bypass this with some other documents and providing a landline that they verify within a week, but it's incredibly cumbersome.
Joeri 9y ago
In Belgium we have a national ID card which has a pin-protected chip and is required for all government and bank interaction. It is very hard to forge, and through a usb card reader I can use it for digital authentication (like for filing my taxes on the web). Getting one issued in the case of loss requires interacting with the police, so the threshold to someone fraudulently obtaining a real card in someone else's name is high. Identity theft isn't something I hear about often here.
tscs37 9y ago
In Germany, my ID might be a form of identification but only in association with the person in question, the ID's number or data itself is not considered identifying by a few institutions (postal service, banks, etc; you always need physical presence for identification or use post-ident) The ID is government issued, cheap to obtain in case of loss (30€ and a bit of waiting until the new one arrives) and contains a photo of you so it's of no particular value to someone who doesn't look like you. IIRC identity theft isn't a huge problem in Germany but it exists, however most credit agencies offer options to lock down or delete data concerning such theft, I haven't interacted with any of them yet though.
- kuschku 9y ago
  > or use post-ident Or use the eID functionality, which is growing now that the old IDs are starting to expire.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    TBH, I haven't seen many websites that offer eID functionality, so I haven't bothered setting it up.
    - freeflight 9y ago
      It's certainly a weird process to witness in Germany. A couple of weeks ago I had a friend over who used my WLAN to eID for some service (i think it was pre-paid CC? Neither of us can't remember at this point) over his android phone using some "AusweisApp2". He ended up in a video chat with a lady who asked him to show his face/ID and swivel the ID in the light so she could see the reflections of the security features. I was sitting next to that whole process thinking about how difficult it would be to put on a convincing facemask and create a matching fake ID that would pass a video inspection. Shouldn't be that difficult, most certainly less difficult than trying to convince a postman in person by showing them a fake ID at an address matching the fake ID.
      - tscs37 9y ago
avip 9y ago
I always look at Estonia when such questions arise. They are consistently on the frontend of public service innovation.
alpinemeadow 9y ago
In Sweden I got an identity card with a chip that I can use with BankID (a system that uses a card reader + PIN for most transactions). There is a Tax ID number but this is pretty much a public record (you can find out people's incomes very easily, in fact small local newspapers run every year "richest people in X articles") In addition, every time a company runs a credit check on me, the credit reporting company must snail mail a copy of my credit report to my physical address. So it would be pretty easy for me to detect a fake account creation.
- freeflight 9y ago
  > In addition, every time a company runs a credit check on me, the credit reporting company must snail mail a copy of my credit report to my physical address. Wow, that's really user-friendly, I wish it would be handled like that in Germany too. Instead, German registration offices are selling citizen registration data in bulk to most interested parties and they couldn't even tell you to whom [0]. People can opt out of that process, by handing in a written objection with their initial registration, tho barely anybody actually does that because barely anybody is aware of their data being sold in the first place. [0] https://www.golem.de/1010/78398.html https://www.golem.de/1010/78398.html
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
MrQuincle 9y ago
Just make it impossible to get credit without any purpose. + Getting a mortgage as an identity thief? Fine. Easy to pay him a visit. + Getting a car? No. That's dumb. You can buy a car if you have the money. + Getting a bank account? Fine. Just force banks to disallow people to go below zero for several years (or forever). Replace all credit cards by debit cards. That's basically the situation in the Netherlands for most part. Identity still gets stolen, but the impact is minimal.

Fixed, thanks. What do you feel are some sensible systems used by the rest of the world? One that's hopefully hard enough to break but easy enough not to cause massive hassles.

kmonsen 9y ago

Better checks by the banks, they need to take responsibility when opening accounts and not rely on the credit bureaus. This could mean slightly more expensive banking services.

user5994461 9y ago

To confirm your identify: national ID card, passport or driver license. To confirm your income: Your yearly income tax sheet, a payslip or your contract of employment. There is really no reason whatsoever for credit check and background check agencies to exist. All they do is ask for these papers anyway.

harryh 9y ago
It's worth noting that the perpetrator in the bloomberg article had a fake driver's license in the name of the victim. So ID cards aren't a complete solution either.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Not to mention the other documents from the GP.
- u801e 9y ago
  Couldn't they verify the authenticity of the drivers license by contacting the department of motor vehicles? One shouldn't verify documents unless you're a member of the organization that issued them.
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    It was most likely a real license. Credit checks use the DL number. You need an SSN card to get a license or ID card and the SSN card is gained using security questions and has no photo, fingerprints or biometrics associated with it. I remember needing to get a new SSN card once and it was creepy how easy it was.
    - mgkimsal 9y ago
      Comparing photo on dl with photo from DMV might help.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  But you get that ID card using an SSN card. Other countries have a photo attached to your nation ID card and citizen identification number (and sometimes fingerprints too). But think about America right now. Do you honestly think we could get national ID numbers? Could you imagine people being asked for a DNA swab or fingerprint to establish their identity? The blow black would be monstrous, and I don't think it'd be entirely unjustified. With 1% of our population incarcerated or on probation, with no national health care and being the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world, there is good reason for Americans not to trust their government. Add in all the fundie religious people crying "sign of the beast" and Alex Jones followers yelling "national RFID chips" and you're stuck with a situation that cannot change.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > But you get that ID card using an SSN card. Not necessarily. Not all states require an SSN in order to issue an ID. > But think about America right now. Do you honestly think we could get national ID numbers? Unfortunately (for all the reasons you mentioned and more), we're pretty close, as the REAL ID system is about to take effect. That's going to be a huge problem for people living in the states that don't issue REAL IDs. It's also going to be a problem for legal immigrants and transgender people in every state.
    - uiri 9y ago
      Not all states require an SSN in order to issue an ID. I was under the impression that every single state requires an SSN to issue a driver's license or id card in order to track and enforce child support order across state lines. Which states don't require an SSN to issue an ID? Legal immigrants have passports, and ID cards/driver's licenses from their home country. I'm not sure what will require two forms of REAL ID compliant identification.
      - chimeracoder 9y ago
        > I was under the impression that every single state requires an SSN to issue a driver's license or id card in order to track and enforce child support order across state lines. Nope. If they did, the impetus behind the REAL ID act wouldn't even be relevant, because illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to obtain a drivers' license or state ID. > Which states don't require an SSN to issue an ID? California is the biggest one, and in fact, California makes it illegal to discriminate against anyone who has a driver's license but cannot show legal residency. Some states mark licenses as "not valid for identification" if they don't show legal residency, but it's usually subtle and easily overlooked or ignored. And the SSN isn't the only way to show legal residency, either. > Legal immigrants have passports, and ID cards/driver's licenses from their home country. For foreigners, passports are the only acceptable form of identification from foreign governments. Driver's licenses and other government IDs are not allowed, with the exception of driver's licenses from Canada.
aianus 9y ago
Credit has little to do with income. I have over $70k in various credit lines and have never shown any proof of income whatsoever. I just name a number and they accept it (after checking my all-important credit score).
- user5994461 9y ago
  Again, that's an American thing. They will distribute credits to whoever ask for them, as much as they can just to make money out of people. In non insane countries, you are considered debt-free when you have no credit, not when you accumulate credits and pay them with one another.
  - aianus 9y ago
    Giving people credit without seeing how much they already owe and how they're repaying it is insane. Rich people can go over their heads and default just as well as poor people. There is an obvious and valid need for credit reporting agencies to exist.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > In non insane countries, you are considered debt-free when you have no credit, not when you accumulate credits and pay them with one another. I'm not sure how you think the American system works if you think that "debt-free" has any meaning other than "no balances or debts outstanding".
alkonaut 9y ago
We have national id + complete index of people, but still have credit check agencies. The difference is probably that here those agencies aren't somehow trying to guarantee my identity. They just answer what credit rating my identity has.

chx 9y ago

Five years on top of what you get for other crimes if you faked a government ID (in itself it can be as low as one year but combined with other crimes, it's five years). It's one good step among many.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Waterluvian 9y ago

In Canada you can't do anything meaningful without a photo driver's license or a passport. My wife got a passport just to have a quality ID. Before that she couldn't even open a chequing account.

tmnvix 9y ago
Ditto NZ and Aus. Also means that no national ID card or number is necessary. Seems kind of obvious to me. The use of SSN as proof of identity in the US just seems like misuse to me.
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  There's a fantastic CGP Grey video on that. I'd search for a link but on phone.
  - tonyztan 9y ago
    https://youtu.be/Erp8IAUouus https://youtu.be/Erp8IAUouus
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Ditto NZ and Aus. Also means that no national ID card or number is necessary. Seems kind of obvious to me. The use of SSN as proof of identity in the US just seems like misuse to me. It's the same in the US too. The problem in the article is that the person had a legitimate driver's license issued in the stolen name with his own picture on it. It's not just a simple as "he had the SSN".
ev0l 9y ago
That's not entirly true. The branch manager has discression. I know because when I first moved to Canada I had no such ID and opened an account after asking for the branch manager.
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that. I always assumed it was policy. I've spent my whole life needing a driver's license or passport when I do anything money or government related. I'm glad they can make discresionary decisions like that for special circumstances, such as someone who clearly can't have an ID or passport yet. Mind if I ask, did they ask for your passport?

cyphar 9y ago

Usually multiple forms of ID. In Australia you have a "points" system (each form of ID is worth a certain number of points and they are additive) where you need 100 points to create a bank account. This translates to a drivers license and passport, or drivers license and existing debit card, etc. In Estonia I believe the system is based on public key cryptography (every national ID has a private key that is used for signing things).

mcguire 9y ago
HSPD12 badges for everyone?

sfifs 9y ago

India is switching to biometric verification linked to the national identity card. The last lease agreement I registered and the last phone connection I obtained both went through the biometric verification process These are implemented as biometric two factor auth. So you show your id card, scan your finger print and validate via a code received to the registered mobile device on sms

KGIII 9y ago
What if you have no cell phone or computer?
- sfifs 9y ago
  At this point, cell phone is a necessity in India to get any services. Mobile subscriber base is about 1.1 billion (1) which means almost all adults have a cell phone connection. So the question is practically moot. (1) https://www.google.com.sg/amp/m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/telecom-subscriber-base-in-india-crossed-1-12-bn-in-nov-trai/amp_articleshow/56959807.cms https://www.google.com.sg/amp/m.timesofindia.com/business/in...
  - KGIII 9y ago
    Practically moot is a varied distance from moot. I was just curious if there was an underclass that was unable to get any services. It's much the same in my country, really.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > At this point, cell phone is a necessity in India to get any services And in a delightful catch-22, Aadhaar is essentially a requirement for obtaining a cell phone. You can bypass this with some other documents and providing a landline that they verify within a week, but it's incredibly cumbersome.

Joeri 9y ago

In Belgium we have a national ID card which has a pin-protected chip and is required for all government and bank interaction. It is very hard to forge, and through a usb card reader I can use it for digital authentication (like for filing my taxes on the web). Getting one issued in the case of loss requires interacting with the police, so the threshold to someone fraudulently obtaining a real card in someone else's name is high. Identity theft isn't something I hear about often here.

tscs37 9y ago

In Germany, my ID might be a form of identification but only in association with the person in question, the ID's number or data itself is not considered identifying by a few institutions (postal service, banks, etc; you always need physical presence for identification or use post-ident) The ID is government issued, cheap to obtain in case of loss (30€ and a bit of waiting until the new one arrives) and contains a photo of you so it's of no particular value to someone who doesn't look like you. IIRC identity theft isn't a huge problem in Germany but it exists, however most credit agencies offer options to lock down or delete data concerning such theft, I haven't interacted with any of them yet though.

kuschku 9y ago
> or use post-ident Or use the eID functionality, which is growing now that the old IDs are starting to expire.
- tscs37 9y ago
  TBH, I haven't seen many websites that offer eID functionality, so I haven't bothered setting it up.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    It's certainly a weird process to witness in Germany. A couple of weeks ago I had a friend over who used my WLAN to eID for some service (i think it was pre-paid CC? Neither of us can't remember at this point) over his android phone using some "AusweisApp2". He ended up in a video chat with a lady who asked him to show his face/ID and swivel the ID in the light so she could see the reflections of the security features. I was sitting next to that whole process thinking about how difficult it would be to put on a convincing facemask and create a matching fake ID that would pass a video inspection. Shouldn't be that difficult, most certainly less difficult than trying to convince a postman in person by showing them a fake ID at an address matching the fake ID.
    - tscs37 9y ago

avip 9y ago

I always look at Estonia when such questions arise. They are consistently on the frontend of public service innovation.

alpinemeadow 9y ago

In Sweden I got an identity card with a chip that I can use with BankID (a system that uses a card reader + PIN for most transactions). There is a Tax ID number but this is pretty much a public record (you can find out people's incomes very easily, in fact small local newspapers run every year "richest people in X articles") In addition, every time a company runs a credit check on me, the credit reporting company must snail mail a copy of my credit report to my physical address. So it would be pretty easy for me to detect a fake account creation.

freeflight 9y ago
> In addition, every time a company runs a credit check on me, the credit reporting company must snail mail a copy of my credit report to my physical address. Wow, that's really user-friendly, I wish it would be handled like that in Germany too. Instead, German registration offices are selling citizen registration data in bulk to most interested parties and they couldn't even tell you to whom [0]. People can opt out of that process, by handing in a written objection with their initial registration, tho barely anybody actually does that because barely anybody is aware of their data being sold in the first place. [0] https://www.golem.de/1010/78398.html https://www.golem.de/1010/78398.html

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

MrQuincle 9y ago

Just make it impossible to get credit without any purpose. + Getting a mortgage as an identity thief? Fine. Easy to pay him a visit. + Getting a car? No. That's dumb. You can buy a car if you have the money. + Getting a bank account? Fine. Just force banks to disallow people to go below zero for several years (or forever). Replace all credit cards by debit cards. That's basically the situation in the Netherlands for most part. Identity still gets stolen, but the impact is minimal.