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> So, the STEPS project I mentioned above¹ doesn't count? Bret Victor's work wouldn't count? That's incredibly short sighted. It is incredibly short sighted to

> So, the STEPS project I mentioned above¹ doesn't count? Bret Victor's work wouldn't count? That's incredibly short sighted. It is incredibly short sighted to make an assumption about what I said and criticize on that wrong assumption. There's a term for this logical fallacy but i forget. Anyway, there's a huge difference between coming up with an idea/prototype and turning it into a product that's meant for mainstream usage. You would only know this if you have actually built something that's meant for mainstream usage so if you don't get this it's fine, but try doing that next time and you'll realize that's true. What I'm criticizing is his comments on Apple's implementation decisions on things like the stylus. There are plenty of reasons why they decided to go that way, and I totally understand if this criticism was coming from some ignorant journalist who hasn't built anything (because they're ignorant), but Alan Kay should know better. There are way more things to consider than just ideals when you're building a real product. This is probably why Xerox Parc built so many innovative prototypes but most of them were commercialized by other companies. If they had people like Steve Jobs instead, Xerox would be Apple by now. If you think I'm being overly critical, just watch some of his speech videos on youtube, too much of what he says is based on the past and not the future.

loup-vaillant 9y ago
> It is incredibly short sighted to make an assumption about what I said and criticize on that wrong assumption. Are you saying I was mistaken and the STEPS project and Bret Victor's demos do count after all? Even though they're prototypes that haven't been "productised and distributed"? I merely assumed you meant what you wrote. If you didn't, don't complain. > What I'm criticizing is his comments on Apple's implementation decisions on things like the stylus. Come on, that criticism was spot on. The iPad could have a spot for the pen. The pen could be tethered to the iPad. Apple could have sold pen like they now do. The Nintendo DS ships with a freaking pen. I'm reluctant to dispute your point in general, but that was a bad example.
- cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
  > The iPad could have a spot for the pen. The pen could be tethered to the iPad. Yes they could, but I really think this is subjective. In my case I prefer NOT to have a spot because of aesthetic reasons, plus I never use the stylus. But like I said, this is subjective. And that's exactly the point. You can't really judge execution based on subjective qualities like this. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. It's just a difference in vision. People have different priorities. For example the Bitcoin community right now is divided into two based on their philosophy, and you can't say one is right and one is wrong because each has their own vision and each side makes sense in their own right. I'm sure Alan Kay had his own vision about what a computer could become. I think if he's so dissatisfied with what it's come to, the best approach is to build one himself and give it to the world. (But honestly, as someone who's been thinking a lot about this field, I see so many "plot holes" in all the criticism he's making) I am all for visionaries building inspiring products and shipping to market. But it's sad to see people like him dwelling on the past instead of the future.
- a_dev_123 9y ago
  What part of "if you see a style, they blew it" is hard for you to understand?

loup-vaillant 9y ago

> It is incredibly short sighted to make an assumption about what I said and criticize on that wrong assumption. Are you saying I was mistaken and the STEPS project and Bret Victor's demos do count after all? Even though they're prototypes that haven't been "productised and distributed"? I merely assumed you meant what you wrote. If you didn't, don't complain. > What I'm criticizing is his comments on Apple's implementation decisions on things like the stylus. Come on, that criticism was spot on. The iPad could have a spot for the pen. The pen could be tethered to the iPad. Apple could have sold pen like they now do. The Nintendo DS ships with a freaking pen. I'm reluctant to dispute your point in general, but that was a bad example.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
> The iPad could have a spot for the pen. The pen could be tethered to the iPad. Yes they could, but I really think this is subjective. In my case I prefer NOT to have a spot because of aesthetic reasons, plus I never use the stylus. But like I said, this is subjective. And that's exactly the point. You can't really judge execution based on subjective qualities like this. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. It's just a difference in vision. People have different priorities. For example the Bitcoin community right now is divided into two based on their philosophy, and you can't say one is right and one is wrong because each has their own vision and each side makes sense in their own right. I'm sure Alan Kay had his own vision about what a computer could become. I think if he's so dissatisfied with what it's come to, the best approach is to build one himself and give it to the world. (But honestly, as someone who's been thinking a lot about this field, I see so many "plot holes" in all the criticism he's making) I am all for visionaries building inspiring products and shipping to market. But it's sad to see people like him dwelling on the past instead of the future.
a_dev_123 9y ago
What part of "if you see a style, they blew it" is hard for you to understand?