6 ms·

Once you work remotely (and you have your own office, in your own house) you feel bad, terribly sorry for anyone that stays in an open office "cultured" tech co

by acty1 9y ago

Once you work remotely (and you have your own office, in your own house) you feel bad, terribly sorry for anyone that stays in an open office "cultured" tech company making 200k+ per year. The quality of life and lack of freedom you exchange for the "next 100k" above and beyond a 100k base Salary is never worth it. Time and health is your most precious resource and asset. And many are deluded into thinking it's ok to trade that for (what they mistakingly) thing is a lot of money (hint: it's not when taking taxes, commute and accomodation into account)

flachsechs 9y ago
> (hint: it's not when taking taxes, commute and accomodation into account) this is important to keep in mind. the people who are the true high earners are making 500k+, sometimes married to someone else who also does. the real outliers make millions. they are the ones buying multi-$million houses in the bay area, LA, NY, etc. it's not mysterious overseas chinese and arab buyers. it's high earning americans taking home 30, 40 thousand dollars a month or who struck it big with equity. it's a scam. don't fall for it. if you want to make millions, go for it, but don't commit slow suicide over the marginal difference in a high-tax state. furthermore, 200k is NOT a stepping stone between 100k and 500k. that's not how it works for the vast majority of people, i.e. people who are not gifted at management and corporate politics. if you're in the true high earner range, you did a LOT of stuff to get there, such as medical school, law school, or similar, or busted your ass starting your own company years ago, or were simply granted some kind of employee stock which you had very little control over (good for you, not so good for anyone else on a normal salary).
- uhhhouses 9y ago
  Uhh, affording a house in LA/SF/NYC is an absolutely collosal amount of money. You sure ain't middle class anymore.
  - flachsechs 9y ago
    "uhhh", isn't that what i just said?
    - uhhhouses 9y ago
      You tell me :) I clearly missed the nuance.
- rndmswethrwawy 9y ago
  As a software engineer, a moderate amount of luck (passing the bar at Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.) combined with an aggressive stance toward your comp can absolutely take you from the $100k to $500k+ range. You will have to work for it, AND you'll have to ask for it, but it can be done. I am the typical "leaned to program as a kid in the 80s/90s" engineer. Knew C when starting college, went to a state school for a bachelor's and master's[0], had a mediocre programming job immediately after. I joined Amazon at $100k base ($120k total) in my mid-20s. Left that after my signing bonus penalty expired for one of the other big players at 28 for $220k. Our stock has done well, but I've also made it clear to my managers that comp matters more to me than most other things when it comes to my job, and my refresh equity grants have been generous. Four and a half years later, my total compensation is just over $500k/year, and accelerating (my career has also gone well -- more luck there). I work hard, but mostly within a 40-50 hour week (I WORK during those hours, though -- no visits to social media, no ping pong breaks, and I take my meals alone). I spend my nights and weekends with my family, and enjoy never having to budget despite somewhat extravagant spending. I don't think I'm atypical for my peers at work. There are a lot of similar stories at the big players, so I'd say that $200k can be a step on the way to $500k+, although almost certainly not to millions (unless you save and invest well, plus even more luck). [0]: Skip the MS. I stayed on because my undergraduate GPA was absolutely terrible.
  - mailshanx 9y ago
    That's an inspiring story. Do you advertise yourself as a generalist or a specialist? When it comes to the actual role, how important do you feel is raw engineering ability versus managerial and political skills?
    - rndmswethrwawy 9y ago
      My work at Amazon was building services with Java and Spring Framework. I got that job based solely on general "algorithms and code on a white board" skills. My resume at the time was a scatter shot of some past Java work (Amazon doesn't really care) and some iOS stuff back in the early days of the app store. I wanted to do something more systems focused, which prompted my departure. I am a capable systems programmer -- not sure why, systems stuff just "click" for me, but honestly I feel most of the value I bring to the table is as a generalist with at least "toy" experience doing a lot of other things. Particularly building systems software, work higher up in the stack helps with understanding what various workloads actually care about. I like to think I'm one of those T-shaped people Valve describes. I am not a manager (I'm an engineering lead). I'm ok at corporate politics -- I suspect a lot of people think I'm a pain in the ass, but I get quiet email's thanking me for being a pain in the ass from other people. Mostly I'd say my career/comp has benefitted from a optimizing for the reality of my job versus what I think I should have to optimize for. What's obviously valuable to me isn't necessarily obviously valuable to others. The ability to explain the value of my (and my team's) work so that others can recognize it is part of the job. This is particularly true as I advance -- a pre-launch executive review is basically an annual self evaluation with more on the line. The same metrics-driven approach works for both. Advancing past line-engineer in the big five means shipping successful products, and shipping means convincing executives with broad responsibility and limited context. If you don't do it, how can you be sure someone else will? So, all of the above? Politics will probably take you further faster. Management (unless you're bad at it) is almost universally acknowledged to be an easier path to career advancement than being an individual contributor. I like being an engineer, though, so basically I optimize for how little of the other two I can do to maximizing the "useful" engineering I do (where "useful" is defined as engineering that ships, delivers value to customers, and ships in a product I can be proud of -- that last one is more important to me than comp, but I'd never let my boss know that).
peferron 9y ago
Don't assume that your own preferences apply to everyone. I worked remotely for a few years, with my own dedicated room/office in my home, and am much happier now that I moved back to our company office even though it has an open-floor plan. I enjoy face-to-face contact with my coworkers, and the light level of noise really doesn't distract me from my work—if anything, the surrounding activity motivates me. We don't all thrive in the same environments. The best you can do is find out what environment is best for you and then work for companies (or start your own) that provide this environment. Edit: since you're also mentioning health and commuting, I bike 30-45 mins each way with most of it on a shoreline trail. It's a net positive for my health since I know I wouldn't exercise as much otherwise. If I had to commute 1 hour or more by car, then I would likely agree with you—I completely despise long car commutes and would rather work from home at this point.
- lizavp 9y ago
  Working from home for two years I miss co-workers however I don't miss the commute.
- piva00 9y ago
  The same for me, worked for almost 2 years remotely and thoroughly missed having co-workers, face-to-face communication and discussions. You lose a whole level of expressiveness being remote, doesn't matter what tools you try to use to mitigate that (video-conference doesn't cover having a whiteboard to draw and people interacting, virtual whiteboards are clunky to use with a trackpad/mouse, etc.). The perfect situation for me would be to have an office where I can go to when I feel like or it's necessary and working from home whenever I can. I also like pairing or mob-programming a lot and still haven't found a proper solution to do those remotely.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    Using Zoom is totally fine for pair/mob programming, but if you want a collaborative IDE, Cloud9 offers this functionality, and everybody on the task can hop onto Zoom (or really anything) in order to facilitate the audio/video. People behave as though there is no way to do this because of their preference for doing it live (the "proper solution"). But this is absolutely possible and I would say actually better facilitated using these tools than everybody gathered 'round a single machine. Anybody can jump in at any moment and make a comment and a change and have it immediately propagated to everyone else's screen. No need for "Let me sit in the chair" or taking five minutes to nitpick over the minutiae of programming to convey an idea.
twiceaday 9y ago
How much of the first 100k do you save for retirement? Because the “next” 100k can all be saved and invested. I would rather retire 2-3x sooner than work forever from home.

by acty1 9y ago

flachsechs 9y ago

> (hint: it's not when taking taxes, commute and accomodation into account) this is important to keep in mind. the people who are the true high earners are making 500k+, sometimes married to someone else who also does. the real outliers make millions. they are the ones buying multi-$million houses in the bay area, LA, NY, etc. it's not mysterious overseas chinese and arab buyers. it's high earning americans taking home 30, 40 thousand dollars a month or who struck it big with equity. it's a scam. don't fall for it. if you want to make millions, go for it, but don't commit slow suicide over the marginal difference in a high-tax state. furthermore, 200k is NOT a stepping stone between 100k and 500k. that's not how it works for the vast majority of people, i.e. people who are not gifted at management and corporate politics. if you're in the true high earner range, you did a LOT of stuff to get there, such as medical school, law school, or similar, or busted your ass starting your own company years ago, or were simply granted some kind of employee stock which you had very little control over (good for you, not so good for anyone else on a normal salary).

uhhhouses 9y ago
Uhh, affording a house in LA/SF/NYC is an absolutely collosal amount of money. You sure ain't middle class anymore.
- flachsechs 9y ago
  "uhhh", isn't that what i just said?
  - uhhhouses 9y ago
    You tell me :) I clearly missed the nuance.
rndmswethrwawy 9y ago
As a software engineer, a moderate amount of luck (passing the bar at Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.) combined with an aggressive stance toward your comp can absolutely take you from the $100k to $500k+ range. You will have to work for it, AND you'll have to ask for it, but it can be done. I am the typical "leaned to program as a kid in the 80s/90s" engineer. Knew C when starting college, went to a state school for a bachelor's and master's[0], had a mediocre programming job immediately after. I joined Amazon at $100k base ($120k total) in my mid-20s. Left that after my signing bonus penalty expired for one of the other big players at 28 for $220k. Our stock has done well, but I've also made it clear to my managers that comp matters more to me than most other things when it comes to my job, and my refresh equity grants have been generous. Four and a half years later, my total compensation is just over $500k/year, and accelerating (my career has also gone well -- more luck there). I work hard, but mostly within a 40-50 hour week (I WORK during those hours, though -- no visits to social media, no ping pong breaks, and I take my meals alone). I spend my nights and weekends with my family, and enjoy never having to budget despite somewhat extravagant spending. I don't think I'm atypical for my peers at work. There are a lot of similar stories at the big players, so I'd say that $200k can be a step on the way to $500k+, although almost certainly not to millions (unless you save and invest well, plus even more luck). [0]: Skip the MS. I stayed on because my undergraduate GPA was absolutely terrible.
- mailshanx 9y ago
  That's an inspiring story. Do you advertise yourself as a generalist or a specialist? When it comes to the actual role, how important do you feel is raw engineering ability versus managerial and political skills?
  - rndmswethrwawy 9y ago
    My work at Amazon was building services with Java and Spring Framework. I got that job based solely on general "algorithms and code on a white board" skills. My resume at the time was a scatter shot of some past Java work (Amazon doesn't really care) and some iOS stuff back in the early days of the app store. I wanted to do something more systems focused, which prompted my departure. I am a capable systems programmer -- not sure why, systems stuff just "click" for me, but honestly I feel most of the value I bring to the table is as a generalist with at least "toy" experience doing a lot of other things. Particularly building systems software, work higher up in the stack helps with understanding what various workloads actually care about. I like to think I'm one of those T-shaped people Valve describes. I am not a manager (I'm an engineering lead). I'm ok at corporate politics -- I suspect a lot of people think I'm a pain in the ass, but I get quiet email's thanking me for being a pain in the ass from other people. Mostly I'd say my career/comp has benefitted from a optimizing for the reality of my job versus what I think I should have to optimize for. What's obviously valuable to me isn't necessarily obviously valuable to others. The ability to explain the value of my (and my team's) work so that others can recognize it is part of the job. This is particularly true as I advance -- a pre-launch executive review is basically an annual self evaluation with more on the line. The same metrics-driven approach works for both. Advancing past line-engineer in the big five means shipping successful products, and shipping means convincing executives with broad responsibility and limited context. If you don't do it, how can you be sure someone else will? So, all of the above? Politics will probably take you further faster. Management (unless you're bad at it) is almost universally acknowledged to be an easier path to career advancement than being an individual contributor. I like being an engineer, though, so basically I optimize for how little of the other two I can do to maximizing the "useful" engineering I do (where "useful" is defined as engineering that ships, delivers value to customers, and ships in a product I can be proud of -- that last one is more important to me than comp, but I'd never let my boss know that).

peferron 9y ago

Don't assume that your own preferences apply to everyone. I worked remotely for a few years, with my own dedicated room/office in my home, and am much happier now that I moved back to our company office even though it has an open-floor plan. I enjoy face-to-face contact with my coworkers, and the light level of noise really doesn't distract me from my work—if anything, the surrounding activity motivates me. We don't all thrive in the same environments. The best you can do is find out what environment is best for you and then work for companies (or start your own) that provide this environment. Edit: since you're also mentioning health and commuting, I bike 30-45 mins each way with most of it on a shoreline trail. It's a net positive for my health since I know I wouldn't exercise as much otherwise. If I had to commute 1 hour or more by car, then I would likely agree with you—I completely despise long car commutes and would rather work from home at this point.

lizavp 9y ago
Working from home for two years I miss co-workers however I don't miss the commute.
piva00 9y ago
The same for me, worked for almost 2 years remotely and thoroughly missed having co-workers, face-to-face communication and discussions. You lose a whole level of expressiveness being remote, doesn't matter what tools you try to use to mitigate that (video-conference doesn't cover having a whiteboard to draw and people interacting, virtual whiteboards are clunky to use with a trackpad/mouse, etc.). The perfect situation for me would be to have an office where I can go to when I feel like or it's necessary and working from home whenever I can. I also like pairing or mob-programming a lot and still haven't found a proper solution to do those remotely.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  Using Zoom is totally fine for pair/mob programming, but if you want a collaborative IDE, Cloud9 offers this functionality, and everybody on the task can hop onto Zoom (or really anything) in order to facilitate the audio/video. People behave as though there is no way to do this because of their preference for doing it live (the "proper solution"). But this is absolutely possible and I would say actually better facilitated using these tools than everybody gathered 'round a single machine. Anybody can jump in at any moment and make a comment and a change and have it immediately propagated to everyone else's screen. No need for "Let me sit in the chair" or taking five minutes to nitpick over the minutiae of programming to convey an idea.

twiceaday 9y ago

How much of the first 100k do you save for retirement? Because the “next” 100k can all be saved and invested. I would rather retire 2-3x sooner than work forever from home.