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You are correct that the key differentiator between the two is philosophical, but > If you value ideology over pragmatism That laden false dichotomy died a lo

You are correct that the key differentiator between the two is philosophical, but > If you value ideology over pragmatism That laden false dichotomy died a long time ago. At best, one can speak of "short term pragmatism" vs "long term pragmatism".

ZenoArrow 9y ago
> "That laden false dichotomy died a long time ago. At best, one can speak of "short term pragmatism" vs "long term pragmatism"." In general yes, but not in this case. There's very little practical difference between free software and open source. Both have access to source code and freedom to distribute/modify/use that source code at their core. For the most part, the rules built up around open source and free software only have a practical impact on how it interacts with non-free software. So for example, having binary blobs in the Linux kernel. Note that whilst the Linux kernel is GPL2, it's still run as an open source project. Regardless of whether a project uses a free software licence, it's the ideological approach to non-free software that splits free software and open source. You could argue that binary blobs in the Linux kernel are a case that can't be described as long term pragmatism, but what's the alternative? That the device without a free driver goes unused until it has one. It could be argued that the existence of binary-only driver releases hold back the long term goals of free software if they take away the desire to write free software drivers, but we can see that people still want free software drivers regardless. Nouveau is a good example, it's a project that's been going for years with almost nonexistent assistance from NVIDIA, and has never matched the performance of the closed source NVIDIA drivers, but people still continue developing it despite the obstacles, and people continue using it despite the lower performance. If short term pragmatism damaged long term pragmatism then projects like Nouveau most likely wouldn't exist, as it's hard to argue against the fact that the NVIDIA closed-source drivers are the superior choice in the short term.
- craigsmansion 9y ago
  You provide a good argument. > but what's the alternative? The alternative is not to use the device, and/or find a replacement. That may sound fairly dogmatic, but over the course of a decade or so, its pragmatic value becomes more apparent. If a piece of hardware works with free drivers, it will likely continue working until the magic smoke escapes. With binary blobs this is not a given, as various kernel upgrades (or even user land changes) might break the environment. I realise that people no longer count the usability of their hardware in decades, but still, there is immense practical value in knowing that the thing you set up to work once will continue doing so allowing you to focus on the task you set it up for without requiring your attention. This, of course, goes against the use case of chasing for example (graphical) performance through the use of proprietary drivers, but that raises the question of what that performance is used for, and whether these use cases are inherently pragmatic (catering to the newest generation of desktop environments, etc. It might be a good argument that these DE increase productivity for the user, but still, the "pragmatic" argument doesn't fall automatically to one side here). On a larger collective scale, the long term pragmatic effects of using free drivers over proprietary drivers are not really disputed I think. As a less technical example (because OS en FS are, as you mentioned, almost indistinguishable there): Getting off FB is a recurring theme here on HN. Free Software values have always led me to eschew that particular site at the expense of social convenience. As I now read these various stories, I can safely conclude for myself that I indeed made the long term pragmatic choice. Open Source here doesn't really have anything to say on the matter, where Free Software has always recognised sofware as a social institution as well as a practical tool. As such, it might be easier to recognise any long term detrimental social effects resulting in a long term pragmatic approach for individuals.

ZenoArrow 9y ago

> "That laden false dichotomy died a long time ago. At best, one can speak of "short term pragmatism" vs "long term pragmatism"." In general yes, but not in this case. There's very little practical difference between free software and open source. Both have access to source code and freedom to distribute/modify/use that source code at their core. For the most part, the rules built up around open source and free software only have a practical impact on how it interacts with non-free software. So for example, having binary blobs in the Linux kernel. Note that whilst the Linux kernel is GPL2, it's still run as an open source project. Regardless of whether a project uses a free software licence, it's the ideological approach to non-free software that splits free software and open source. You could argue that binary blobs in the Linux kernel are a case that can't be described as long term pragmatism, but what's the alternative? That the device without a free driver goes unused until it has one. It could be argued that the existence of binary-only driver releases hold back the long term goals of free software if they take away the desire to write free software drivers, but we can see that people still want free software drivers regardless. Nouveau is a good example, it's a project that's been going for years with almost nonexistent assistance from NVIDIA, and has never matched the performance of the closed source NVIDIA drivers, but people still continue developing it despite the obstacles, and people continue using it despite the lower performance. If short term pragmatism damaged long term pragmatism then projects like Nouveau most likely wouldn't exist, as it's hard to argue against the fact that the NVIDIA closed-source drivers are the superior choice in the short term.

craigsmansion 9y ago
You provide a good argument. > but what's the alternative? The alternative is not to use the device, and/or find a replacement. That may sound fairly dogmatic, but over the course of a decade or so, its pragmatic value becomes more apparent. If a piece of hardware works with free drivers, it will likely continue working until the magic smoke escapes. With binary blobs this is not a given, as various kernel upgrades (or even user land changes) might break the environment. I realise that people no longer count the usability of their hardware in decades, but still, there is immense practical value in knowing that the thing you set up to work once will continue doing so allowing you to focus on the task you set it up for without requiring your attention. This, of course, goes against the use case of chasing for example (graphical) performance through the use of proprietary drivers, but that raises the question of what that performance is used for, and whether these use cases are inherently pragmatic (catering to the newest generation of desktop environments, etc. It might be a good argument that these DE increase productivity for the user, but still, the "pragmatic" argument doesn't fall automatically to one side here). On a larger collective scale, the long term pragmatic effects of using free drivers over proprietary drivers are not really disputed I think. As a less technical example (because OS en FS are, as you mentioned, almost indistinguishable there): Getting off FB is a recurring theme here on HN. Free Software values have always led me to eschew that particular site at the expense of social convenience. As I now read these various stories, I can safely conclude for myself that I indeed made the long term pragmatic choice. Open Source here doesn't really have anything to say on the matter, where Free Software has always recognised sofware as a social institution as well as a practical tool. As such, it might be easier to recognise any long term detrimental social effects resulting in a long term pragmatic approach for individuals.