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> "From the POV of a free software true believer (Hello there!) there is no point to Open Source." The key differentiator between open source and free software

• craigsmansion 9y ago
  You are correct that the key differentiator between the two is philosophical, but > If you value ideology over pragmatism That laden false dichotomy died a long time ago. At best, one can speak of "short term pragmatism" vs "long term pragmatism".
  • ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "That laden false dichotomy died a long time ago. At best, one can speak of "short term pragmatism" vs "long term pragmatism"." In general yes, but not in this case. There's very little practical difference between free software and open source. Both have access to source code and freedom to distribute/modify/use that source code at their core. For the most part, the rules built up around open source and free software only have a practical impact on how it interacts with non-free software. So for example, having binary blobs in the Linux kernel. Note that whilst the Linux kernel is GPL2, it's still run as an open source project. Regardless of whether a project uses a free software licence, it's the ideological approach to non-free software that splits free software and open source. You could argue that binary blobs in the Linux kernel are a case that can't be described as long term pragmatism, but what's the alternative? That the device without a free driver goes unused until it has one. It could be argued that the existence of binary-only driver releases hold back the long term goals of free software if they take away the desire to write free software drivers, but we can see that people still want free software drivers regardless. Nouveau is a good example, it's a project that's been going for years with almost nonexistent assistance from NVIDIA, and has never matched the performance of the closed source NVIDIA drivers, but people still continue developing it despite the obstacles, and people continue using it despite the lower performance. If short term pragmatism damaged long term pragmatism then projects like Nouveau most likely wouldn't exist, as it's hard to argue against the fact that the NVIDIA closed-source drivers are the superior choice in the short term.
    • craigsmansion 9y ago
      You provide a good argument. > but what's the alternative? The alternative is not to use the device, and/or find a replacement. That may sound fairly dogmatic, but over the course of a decade or so, its pragmatic value becomes more apparent. If a piece of hardware works with free drivers, it will likely continue working until the magic smoke escapes. With binary blobs this is not a given, as various kernel upgrades (or even user land changes) might break the environment. I realise that people no longer count the usability of their hardware in decades, but still, there is immense practical value in knowing that the thing you set up to work once will continue doing so allowing you to focus on the task you set it up for without requiring your attention. This, of course, goes against the use case of chasing for example (graphical) performance through the use of proprietary drivers, but that raises the question of what that performance is used for, and whether these use cases are inherently pragmatic (catering to the newest generation of desktop environments, etc. It might be a good argument that these DE increase productivity for the user, but still, the "pragmatic" argument doesn't fall automatically to one side here). On a larger collective scale, the long term pragmatic effects of using free drivers over proprietary drivers are not really disputed I think. As a less technical example (because OS en FS are, as you mentioned, almost indistinguishable there): Getting off FB is a recurring theme here on HN. Free Software values have always led me to eschew that particular site at the expense of social convenience. As I now read these various stories, I can safely conclude for myself that I indeed made the long term pragmatic choice. Open Source here doesn't really have anything to say on the matter, where Free Software has always recognised sofware as a social institution as well as a practical tool. As such, it might be easier to recognise any long term detrimental social effects resulting in a long term pragmatic approach for individuals.
• carapace 9y ago
  > The key differentiator between open source and free software is ideological. I very much disagree. There is a pragmatic difference. The ideology of capital-F Free Software derives from a pragmatic goal. RMS wanted to fix a printer. Today, we live in a world where the computers in our cars have been programmed to lie to us about the hardware they control. (Not to mention the lies were in service of poisoning the air for personal gain.) RMS designed the GPL as a weapon against these people. "Open Source" at best weakens this tool, and as we've seen today, spreads confusion.
  • ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > ""Open Source" at best weakens this tool, and as we've seen today, spreads confusion." How does it spread confusion? How does it weaken free software? Open source and free software are just two different approaches to collaborative software development. There's no confusion in my mind about the benefits they both offer. As for the GPL as a weapon, there's a reason why GPL is falling out of favour. If open source did not exist, most companies simply wouldn't bother sharing source code. How would that help you?
    • carapace 9y ago
      > Open source and free software are just two different approaches to collaborative software development. That is the confusion. They are not. The fact that you think so is exactly the confusion I'm complaining about. GPL is a fire extinguisher, "Open Source" is a bottle of seltzer water, they are not two different approaches to fire-fighting. It doesn't matter to me how many companies choose to be on fire I still do not want to burn with them.
      • ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "That is the confusion. They are not. The fact that you think so is exactly the confusion I'm complaining about." It seems to me that your general argument appears to be based on the GPL being hostile to companies by design. Is that a fair summary?
• carapace 9y ago
  In re: the Caddy kerfuffle > There's nothing in the ideals of free software that prevents what the Caddy authors have done. You're right. By coincidence, I had just gone to look at caddy after the announcement was made, which I missed, and I confess, the header in the binary turned me off for reasons I can't quite articulate. It hurt my feels a little. Some how it felt wrong. Still, the folks who flipped out and flipped the table are out of line, in my opinion. You're absolutely correct about selling Free software. I wish more people did it. Matt Holt and co. should get money for their hard work. I'm tooling up a thing right now and I'll probably use and pay for Caddy. Now that they removed the header that decision is much easier for me personally, but my emotional response wasn't due to a violation of Free Software principles (after all you could compile your own binary!) It had more to due with squishy, unquantifiable things that don't make a lot of sense when you dredge them up and look at them in the light of day.