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Is anyone else over all this? I just can't seem to care anymore. Why can't people just do their jobs and go home? Why is it so important for a work environment

Is anyone else over all this? I just can't seem to care anymore. Why can't people just do their jobs and go home? Why is it so important for a work environment to be "socially safe"? The definition of social safety is arbitrary anyways. The assertion that sexual comments could be so pervasive you can't do your job is utterly absurd in my opinion. Then again maybe I'm just incapable of seeing past my male perspective...

staticautomatic 9y ago
It's great that you were able to answer your own question.
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  I see your point, but why is my perspective the wrong one?
  - solidsnack9000 9y ago
    It comes down to whether people have a reasonable expectation of sexual conduct at work. If the answer is no, then if it makes someone uncomfortable you have to drop it. This is not the same as every kind of thing that can make someone uncomfortable. Should people reasonably expect to have their performance reviewed at work? Yes. So if it makes them uncomfortable, too bad...
    - neveroffensive 9y ago
      I know it's not what you meant, but obviously unwanted physical sexual conduct is immoral/illegal. In regard to verbal sexual conduct I would say it is certainly undesirable in a work environment. I wouldn't allow it for a second if I ran a company, but this isn't my company. If Upload want's sexual conduct to be a part of their work environment, it's a dumb choice, but it's their choice. You can't brow beat society into being perfect, you can only give people basic rights and hope for the best. I'm sorry but I just don't think anyone has the right to be free from verbal harassment. I challenge you to even come up with a definition for verbal harassment that could be universally applicable.
      - mratzloff 9y ago
        Fortunately, it's not your decision if someone is allowed to feel offended or threatened.
        solidsnack9000 9y ago
        This is not really relevant either, though — people can feel offended or threatened for many reasons, it doesn’t mean those things can’t be part of the work environment. For example, if someone has questions about the quality of their work, a person might feel threatened — they might be afraid of getting fired — or they might be offended — they might be proud of their work. But we accept reviewing other people’s work as part of the work place, whether or not it offends or threatens. Emotional response is not enough to establish that something (a) is illegal or (b) should be. With regards to feeling threatened, for example, we have to ask: Was the threat of something unlawful? Being fired for doing bad work is not unlawful; being fired for not putting out is.
        neveroffensive 9y ago
        This is what I've been trying to get at. What makes people offended or uncomfortable is much more arbitrary and subjective than I think most people are willing to admit.
      - solidsnack9000 9y ago
        > I'm sorry but I just don't think anyone has the right to be free from verbal harassment. Is it the verbal nature of it, that leads you to believe people have no right to be free of it? As a counter example, consider that verbal intimidation is just as illegal as any other kind.
        neveroffensive 9y ago
        This is an interesting comparison. Is verbal intimidation illegal/immoral because of the words being said or the intention of physical violence behind them? Is there a difference between saying, "I'm going to kill you tomorrow", or "You must sleep with me or I'll fire you", and "I like your behind"? Edit: To answer your question, yes I do believe that the verbal nature of the non threatening harassment means you don't have a basic human right to be free of it. If the harassment occurred in a language she didn't understand would it have affected her the same?
saalweachter 9y ago
> Why can't people just do their jobs and go home? I would actually use this line at the beginning of a rant to the opposite effect: why can't people be professional in the workplace? Why can't they just do their jobs and go home, and not treat the office like a social club / bar?
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  What is professional? What sexual taboos are/aren't acceptable? What is acceptable workplace banter? I feel like it makes more sense to defer to the least restrictive system...
  - saalweachter 9y ago
    No banter is professional. Not sports, not politics, not art, not the weather.
    - neveroffensive 9y ago
      Honestly, this makes perfect sense. I don't know if this is practical in the real world, but there is logic to it that I can agree with.
      - saalweachter 9y ago
        Oh, it's almost completely impractical in the real world. First and foremost, it would make at least a heavy minority if not a majority of people rather unhappy. Because of a wagon-load of reasons (excessive work hours, moving to a new city for work separating you from most of your pre-existing social network, general difficulty of making new friends as an adult), work friends are the core of most people's social networks nowadays. If you eliminate work friends, you'd leave a lot of us more-or-less friendless, isolated, and sad. It also becomes complicated when you consider that some work inherently involves discussing your personal opinions. What business practices are ethical, aesthetics of design, editorial choices. Finally, employees must be able to discuss matters of common interest directly, to organize against management in both traditional matters of worker interest (conditions, pay, benefits) and to express a collective opinion about the direction of the company (eg, when the company takes actions the employees believe are unethical). This also requires employees be able to express potentially objectionable opinions to each other. But as a model of professional behavior, it would make everything so much simpler if you never said one extra word to or treated the person in the next desk/cube/office in the slightest way different, inside the workplace, regardless of whether they're your best friend, your spouse, your kidney donor, your childhood bully, your crush, your worst enemy, or your closest relative. If you work with your best friend, finish your work, leave the office, and then talk to them about sports or your porn collections.
fred_is_fred 9y ago
You bet your tight little ... that we should just do our jobs and go home. Maybe you should go home with me? You know my wife is cool with it and I can do really good things for you here at $company... I don't see why you're upset? You're a team player right? We're not trying to run a "socially safe" workplace here. You're not one of those bleeding hearts are you? /s
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  Is the proper reply to this not, "What the hell is wrong with you"? Followed by ignoring the person...
  - urbanj 9y ago
    Hey bitch, don't ignore me. imma make sure you don't get that promotion, Imma make sure everything in the company knows you're a slut.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    Why should a anyone have to have the occasion to make such a reply? What workplaces have you worked in where you could literally ignore other employees, especially authority roles, without repercussions? In what world do you suppose women are not subject to this sort of sexual harassment regularly?
    - neveroffensive 9y ago
      What's wrong with taking five seconds to tell someone their comment wasn't appreciated? You also have the option to just ignore them. Are you really saying you can't ignore unwanted sexual comments in the work place? You last assertion is beyond me. I see no evidence to suggest that women in general are subject to regular workplace harassment.
      - urbanj 9y ago
        You pitiful little cunt.
tjalfi 9y ago
Miller v. Dept of Corrections[0] is an example of how bad a toxic work environment can be. [0] http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections-33548 http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections...
matt4077 9y ago
Is it really unthinkable that people would suffer being at the receiving end of all sorts of abuse? The one story that always got me was a friend who went on a business trip with a CXO, who had "accidentally" forgotten to book a room her. He kindly offered her to crash in his suite. She refused–and later found out it had happened two at least two other women before. This story about Upload actually sounds somewhat different. It's really more a juvenile culture as you'd see in high school or undergrad, possibly the result of the founders' age. It seems to be very much like typical middle school bullying, but with a sexual component on top. The only redeeming fact I cling to is that every single company that actually made it big was either somewhat well-behaved from the start, because the people who are successful also tend not to be completely immoral. Or at least they adjusted rather quickly (Facebook comes to mind). Let's hope Uber doesn't prove me wrong.

staticautomatic 9y ago

It's great that you were able to answer your own question.

neveroffensive 9y ago
I see your point, but why is my perspective the wrong one?
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  It comes down to whether people have a reasonable expectation of sexual conduct at work. If the answer is no, then if it makes someone uncomfortable you have to drop it. This is not the same as every kind of thing that can make someone uncomfortable. Should people reasonably expect to have their performance reviewed at work? Yes. So if it makes them uncomfortable, too bad...
  - neveroffensive 9y ago
    I know it's not what you meant, but obviously unwanted physical sexual conduct is immoral/illegal. In regard to verbal sexual conduct I would say it is certainly undesirable in a work environment. I wouldn't allow it for a second if I ran a company, but this isn't my company. If Upload want's sexual conduct to be a part of their work environment, it's a dumb choice, but it's their choice. You can't brow beat society into being perfect, you can only give people basic rights and hope for the best. I'm sorry but I just don't think anyone has the right to be free from verbal harassment. I challenge you to even come up with a definition for verbal harassment that could be universally applicable.
    - mratzloff 9y ago
      Fortunately, it's not your decision if someone is allowed to feel offended or threatened.
      - solidsnack9000 9y ago
        This is not really relevant either, though — people can feel offended or threatened for many reasons, it doesn’t mean those things can’t be part of the work environment. For example, if someone has questions about the quality of their work, a person might feel threatened — they might be afraid of getting fired — or they might be offended — they might be proud of their work. But we accept reviewing other people’s work as part of the work place, whether or not it offends or threatens. Emotional response is not enough to establish that something (a) is illegal or (b) should be. With regards to feeling threatened, for example, we have to ask: Was the threat of something unlawful? Being fired for doing bad work is not unlawful; being fired for not putting out is.
        neveroffensive 9y ago
        This is what I've been trying to get at. What makes people offended or uncomfortable is much more arbitrary and subjective than I think most people are willing to admit.
    - solidsnack9000 9y ago
      > I'm sorry but I just don't think anyone has the right to be free from verbal harassment. Is it the verbal nature of it, that leads you to believe people have no right to be free of it? As a counter example, consider that verbal intimidation is just as illegal as any other kind.
      - neveroffensive 9y ago
        This is an interesting comparison. Is verbal intimidation illegal/immoral because of the words being said or the intention of physical violence behind them? Is there a difference between saying, "I'm going to kill you tomorrow", or "You must sleep with me or I'll fire you", and "I like your behind"? Edit: To answer your question, yes I do believe that the verbal nature of the non threatening harassment means you don't have a basic human right to be free of it. If the harassment occurred in a language she didn't understand would it have affected her the same?

saalweachter 9y ago

> Why can't people just do their jobs and go home? I would actually use this line at the beginning of a rant to the opposite effect: why can't people be professional in the workplace? Why can't they just do their jobs and go home, and not treat the office like a social club / bar?

neveroffensive 9y ago
What is professional? What sexual taboos are/aren't acceptable? What is acceptable workplace banter? I feel like it makes more sense to defer to the least restrictive system...
- saalweachter 9y ago
  No banter is professional. Not sports, not politics, not art, not the weather.
  - neveroffensive 9y ago
    Honestly, this makes perfect sense. I don't know if this is practical in the real world, but there is logic to it that I can agree with.
    - saalweachter 9y ago
      Oh, it's almost completely impractical in the real world. First and foremost, it would make at least a heavy minority if not a majority of people rather unhappy. Because of a wagon-load of reasons (excessive work hours, moving to a new city for work separating you from most of your pre-existing social network, general difficulty of making new friends as an adult), work friends are the core of most people's social networks nowadays. If you eliminate work friends, you'd leave a lot of us more-or-less friendless, isolated, and sad. It also becomes complicated when you consider that some work inherently involves discussing your personal opinions. What business practices are ethical, aesthetics of design, editorial choices. Finally, employees must be able to discuss matters of common interest directly, to organize against management in both traditional matters of worker interest (conditions, pay, benefits) and to express a collective opinion about the direction of the company (eg, when the company takes actions the employees believe are unethical). This also requires employees be able to express potentially objectionable opinions to each other. But as a model of professional behavior, it would make everything so much simpler if you never said one extra word to or treated the person in the next desk/cube/office in the slightest way different, inside the workplace, regardless of whether they're your best friend, your spouse, your kidney donor, your childhood bully, your crush, your worst enemy, or your closest relative. If you work with your best friend, finish your work, leave the office, and then talk to them about sports or your porn collections.

fred_is_fred 9y ago

You bet your tight little ... that we should just do our jobs and go home. Maybe you should go home with me? You know my wife is cool with it and I can do really good things for you here at $company... I don't see why you're upset? You're a team player right? We're not trying to run a "socially safe" workplace here. You're not one of those bleeding hearts are you? /s

neveroffensive 9y ago
Is the proper reply to this not, "What the hell is wrong with you"? Followed by ignoring the person...
- urbanj 9y ago
  Hey bitch, don't ignore me. imma make sure you don't get that promotion, Imma make sure everything in the company knows you're a slut.
- sidlls 9y ago
  Why should a anyone have to have the occasion to make such a reply? What workplaces have you worked in where you could literally ignore other employees, especially authority roles, without repercussions? In what world do you suppose women are not subject to this sort of sexual harassment regularly?
  - neveroffensive 9y ago
    What's wrong with taking five seconds to tell someone their comment wasn't appreciated? You also have the option to just ignore them. Are you really saying you can't ignore unwanted sexual comments in the work place? You last assertion is beyond me. I see no evidence to suggest that women in general are subject to regular workplace harassment.
    - urbanj 9y ago
      You pitiful little cunt.

tjalfi 9y ago

Miller v. Dept of Corrections[0] is an example of how bad a toxic work environment can be. [0] http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections-33548 http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections...

matt4077 9y ago

Is it really unthinkable that people would suffer being at the receiving end of all sorts of abuse? The one story that always got me was a friend who went on a business trip with a CXO, who had "accidentally" forgotten to book a room her. He kindly offered her to crash in his suite. She refused–and later found out it had happened two at least two other women before. This story about Upload actually sounds somewhat different. It's really more a juvenile culture as you'd see in high school or undergrad, possibly the result of the founders' age. It seems to be very much like typical middle school bullying, but with a sexual component on top. The only redeeming fact I cling to is that every single company that actually made it big was either somewhat well-behaved from the start, because the people who are successful also tend not to be completely immoral. Or at least they adjusted rather quickly (Facebook comes to mind). Let's hope Uber doesn't prove me wrong.