7 ms·

I'll be the bad guy here and say that these laws should all just go away. It is just too convenient to plant "evidence" be it alcohol, drugs, or this. The idea

I'll be the bad guy here and say that these laws should all just go away. It is just too convenient to plant "evidence" be it alcohol, drugs, or this. The idea that minors cannot consent is correct. Children are not a scaled small version of adults. They need to develop not just grow physically and children are vulnerable. We need to protect vulnerable members of our society. However, like with so many things in life, we've gone too far though. We need to scale back this stupidity be it "for the children" or "terrorism" or "drugs are bad". There's a quote about doing the same thing and expecting different results which I can't remember off the top of my head but to me all of this: including the drama against marriage and abortion feels like bread and circus to get people occupied with silliness.

jliptzin 9y ago
It's horrifyingly easy to frame someone for CP. There are even people advertising on onion sites to frame someone remotely for as little as $300.
- justonepost 9y ago
  It's not easy to frame someone successfully, the law is pretty careful about stuff like this. However you could probably get someone fired or develop a bad rep.
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    But that’s the thing, if you get their name in the media, true or not, they’re ruined. People NEVER believe someone accused of These types of crimes are innocent.
  - aiyodev 9y ago
    Just being investigated, losing all electronics, losing your job, losing friends, losing family, living in fear for months is bad enough that a framing is probably considered successful in the eyes of the framer whether or not it results in a trial. It's like you're saying the rape doesn't count if nobody gets pregnant.
    - BigJono 9y ago
      And god help you if you find yourself in the media crosshairs at any point. Which is even more likely if you go to trial since "paedophile gets community service/fine" is an absolute slam dunk of a headline and nobody other than the courts are going to give a shit whether you violently raped a kid in a dark alley or had someone download 3 videos on your badly secured wi-fi.
      - giancarlostoro 9y ago
        > or had someone download 3 videos on your badly secured wi-fi. Depends: https://www.justice.gov/usao-co/pr/colorado-springs-man-car-viewing-child-pornography-fort-carson-army-base-sentenced-7 https://www.justice.gov/usao-co/pr/colorado-springs-man-car-...
        jessaustin 9y ago
        Seems like if he had been using Joe Blow's unsecured wifi rather than the army's, there could have been another defendant in that case?
  - will_brown 9y ago
    These are the easiest laws...namely because they are strict liability laws[1], if pictures exist there is guilt notwithstanding intent which is the common standard in US criminal law. Take a dead body, that could be murder( 1st degree, 2nd, 3rd), manslaughter or even a lawful killing (self defense). But as you will see in the link below even receiving a text can lead to conviction even if you receive it in error and report it. [1]https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/news/congressional-testimony-and-reports/sex-offense-topics/201212-federal-child-pornography-offenses/Chapter_02.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/news/congressio...
  - mirimir 9y ago
    My wife uses a local mail client. So recently, I was helping her find an attachment. And I happened to browse the embedded images folder. She was very surprised ;) Anyway, putting someone on a CP spam list, and then getting them busted, might well do it.
    - gscott 9y ago
      The courts have determined that having CP in your browser image history as thumbnails not even full sized images is the same as having seen the full sized images. So popping up a window with a hundred thumbnails is enough to provide evidence to send someone away for life.
dcow 9y ago
> There's a quote about doing the same thing and expecting different results... It's the definition of insanity. The abortion topic is interesting because we're talking about how we socially define a human life in a realm where science can't help at all (or at least has failed to give a concrete answer thus far). If it was an accepted truth that human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. Even our laws reflect that at a certain stage prior to a baby exiting the uterus the thing is, for all intents and peuposes, alive. I actually think using fuzzy privacy prose to defend the right to terminate something that may or may not be conscious or "human" is really a stretch. Anyway for all the other stuff I agree: insane.
- mjevans 9y ago
  It'd be so much easier if as a society we agreed that everyone should have healthcare, and that reproduction should be a choice positively made, instead of the default consequence of sex.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
    While that would help it doesn't 'fix' the issue. Unintended pregnancies will happen and you will need a moral framework to deal with them. There is no avoiding the matter.
    - dcow 9y ago
      I think contraception has gotten quite good. I don't think the edge cases would excessively burden society in a way we'd be unable to manage. I could see a definition of contraception being something that prevents an egg, fertilized or not, from developing. And then we could define abortion as the act of terminating a developing embryo. I imagine if people had universal access to contraception we'd be more socially willing to push the responsibility of using the tools provided (and generally being sexually educated and responsible) back on the individuals involved.
  - dcow 9y ago
    Exactly. There's nothing additional that abortion solves that isn't covered by responsible use of contraception except maybe someone changing their mind or I guess more fairly having their economic situation change such that rearing a child is no longer the socially responsible choice. But I think that's something we're equip to handle via other means (adoption).
0xcde4c3db 9y ago
I'm definitely leery of any law that attributes strict liability to mere possession, rather than requiring the authorities to prove that something was obtained with intent or knowingly stored in an unsafe way. It might as well be engineered to enable busting "inconvenient" people by planting evidence.

jliptzin 9y ago

It's horrifyingly easy to frame someone for CP. There are even people advertising on onion sites to frame someone remotely for as little as $300.

justonepost 9y ago
It's not easy to frame someone successfully, the law is pretty careful about stuff like this. However you could probably get someone fired or develop a bad rep.
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  But that’s the thing, if you get their name in the media, true or not, they’re ruined. People NEVER believe someone accused of These types of crimes are innocent.
- aiyodev 9y ago
  Just being investigated, losing all electronics, losing your job, losing friends, losing family, living in fear for months is bad enough that a framing is probably considered successful in the eyes of the framer whether or not it results in a trial. It's like you're saying the rape doesn't count if nobody gets pregnant.
  - BigJono 9y ago
    And god help you if you find yourself in the media crosshairs at any point. Which is even more likely if you go to trial since "paedophile gets community service/fine" is an absolute slam dunk of a headline and nobody other than the courts are going to give a shit whether you violently raped a kid in a dark alley or had someone download 3 videos on your badly secured wi-fi.
    - giancarlostoro 9y ago
      > or had someone download 3 videos on your badly secured wi-fi. Depends: https://www.justice.gov/usao-co/pr/colorado-springs-man-car-viewing-child-pornography-fort-carson-army-base-sentenced-7 https://www.justice.gov/usao-co/pr/colorado-springs-man-car-...
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        Seems like if he had been using Joe Blow's unsecured wifi rather than the army's, there could have been another defendant in that case?
- will_brown 9y ago
  These are the easiest laws...namely because they are strict liability laws[1], if pictures exist there is guilt notwithstanding intent which is the common standard in US criminal law. Take a dead body, that could be murder( 1st degree, 2nd, 3rd), manslaughter or even a lawful killing (self defense). But as you will see in the link below even receiving a text can lead to conviction even if you receive it in error and report it. [1]https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/news/congressional-testimony-and-reports/sex-offense-topics/201212-federal-child-pornography-offenses/Chapter_02.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/news/congressio...
- mirimir 9y ago
  My wife uses a local mail client. So recently, I was helping her find an attachment. And I happened to browse the embedded images folder. She was very surprised ;) Anyway, putting someone on a CP spam list, and then getting them busted, might well do it.
  - gscott 9y ago
    The courts have determined that having CP in your browser image history as thumbnails not even full sized images is the same as having seen the full sized images. So popping up a window with a hundred thumbnails is enough to provide evidence to send someone away for life.

dcow 9y ago

> There's a quote about doing the same thing and expecting different results... It's the definition of insanity. The abortion topic is interesting because we're talking about how we socially define a human life in a realm where science can't help at all (or at least has failed to give a concrete answer thus far). If it was an accepted truth that human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. Even our laws reflect that at a certain stage prior to a baby exiting the uterus the thing is, for all intents and peuposes, alive. I actually think using fuzzy privacy prose to defend the right to terminate something that may or may not be conscious or "human" is really a stretch. Anyway for all the other stuff I agree: insane.

mjevans 9y ago
It'd be so much easier if as a society we agreed that everyone should have healthcare, and that reproduction should be a choice positively made, instead of the default consequence of sex.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
  While that would help it doesn't 'fix' the issue. Unintended pregnancies will happen and you will need a moral framework to deal with them. There is no avoiding the matter.
  - dcow 9y ago
    I think contraception has gotten quite good. I don't think the edge cases would excessively burden society in a way we'd be unable to manage. I could see a definition of contraception being something that prevents an egg, fertilized or not, from developing. And then we could define abortion as the act of terminating a developing embryo. I imagine if people had universal access to contraception we'd be more socially willing to push the responsibility of using the tools provided (and generally being sexually educated and responsible) back on the individuals involved.
- dcow 9y ago
  Exactly. There's nothing additional that abortion solves that isn't covered by responsible use of contraception except maybe someone changing their mind or I guess more fairly having their economic situation change such that rearing a child is no longer the socially responsible choice. But I think that's something we're equip to handle via other means (adoption).

0xcde4c3db 9y ago

I'm definitely leery of any law that attributes strict liability to mere possession, rather than requiring the authorities to prove that something was obtained with intent or knowingly stored in an unsafe way. It might as well be engineered to enable busting "inconvenient" people by planting evidence.