19 ms·

Looks like JP Morgan got caught buying Bitcoin today (use google translate)

116 points by js7745 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rothbardrand 9y ago
FYI- Myself and almost all the hardcore bitcoiners I know feel the recent price drop was due to China, not Dimon. Dimon has been making these pronouncements for years, and things had already started to turn with the rumors coming out of china. Even then the recent drop was basically just a big trading opportunity-- the rumors kept building and once an exchange said they were going to shut down, all the whales piled in at once... to kill the price and take profits and drive out the weak hands. And then when the other exchanges were clearly going to shut down and all the shorts had been built up, these same whales piled in at once again to get coins at a lower price. Thats why the move is so dramatic and so quick. I don't think this was collusion. I don't think this was coordinated or communicated or even intentional-- it was just an obvious trade and so a bunch of people jumped on it. One thing about BTC is that it is a free market, and that means you don't have market makers who act as stops on price movements (or trading hours, LOL!) and so things are very different there. This is why the general advice is HODL. Just buy bitcoin using dollar cost averaging, don't risk too much and hold it. Timing the market is a PITA, and I'm convinced impossible on the micro. On the macro scale, though, HODL is the best strategy. PS; here by HODL I mean "hold on for dear life". Don't get shaken out of your coins by roller coaster weeks like this one.
- 21 9y ago
  China was the trigger. But it was not the reason. The reason was the incredible appreciation over the last year. A meaningful correction was imminent. I still don't think it is done. I would expect to see 1500 again before the next leg up. But you are right, trying to nail the bottom is not a good strategy.
  - jstandard 9y ago
    On what basis do you expect to see 1500?
    - 21 9y ago
      Previous Bitcoin spikes, my financial markets experience. Like I said, if you want in, get in. But if you are not particularly itching at the moment, waiting for a MAYBE 1500 is much better.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    NVDA has had some incredible appreciation. It outperformed BTC in 2016. Should I short it then?
    - akvadrako 9y ago
      NVDA was a great buy a year ago but the current price only seems fair in a very optimistic scenario. I wouldn't short it, but there isn't much hope it'll go higher.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        Okay, same question for AAPL. Point is good performance doesn't automatically mean a bubble.
        21 9y ago
        There is a difference between good performance and parabolic increase fueled by FOMO. Not to mention that bitcoin has a history of these spikes and busts - 2011, 2013, now
- paulsutter 9y ago
  Hodl isn't an acronym: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0 132 pages of comments
  - natch 9y ago
    I think the commenter knew that and was being cheeky with the acronym.
    - dvt 9y ago
      It's not an acronym, it's an enthusiastic misspelling.
      - IncRnd 9y ago
        In this case it's also a backronym, which is an ancroynm.
      - natch 9y ago
        Yeah... that's why I said it was cheeky. Whoosh.
        dvt 9y ago
        Whoops :)
  - rothbardrand 9y ago
    "Here by HODL I mean".... pretty much makes it explicit what I am meaning by the term... which has been used in different ways. You are linking to the origination of the meme, like I've somehow made an error by specifying the specific use I'm intending.... which only reveals you're less familiar with the term than me.
    - y4mi 9y ago
      He isnt complaining about your intended meaning. He is complaining about your spelling of the term. It shouldn't be in caps because it's an intentional misspelling, not a sentence reduced to each words first letter
- dgut 9y ago
  What do you mean by "hardcore bitoiner"? Just curious.
  - senatorobama 9y ago
    He uses the colloquialisms of a day-trader. I worry about his future.
  - rothbardrand 9y ago
    I work in the industry and am pretty well connected to core. I've worked for and founded startups in this industry. The sibling comments insults are too typical for hacker news.
  - sbenitoj 9y ago
    He means he has coinmarketcap.com AND coincap.io opened in two different tabs at all times to ensure he never misses a price move.
- nosuchthing 9y ago
  Prevailing theory is that the price is manipulated by the bitcoin central bank, aka Bitfinex's Tether minting & counterfeiting scheme. https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7059hr/more_25_million_tethers_generated_today/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7059hr/more_25_million... https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/6xpddt/as_20m_more_tether_are_issued_today_i_think_its/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/6xpddt/as_20m_more_tet... https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed
  - rothbardrand 9y ago
    Not only are you linking to reddit, you're linking to the sub reddit with the least educated bitcoin users in it. That sub reddit is where people who don't understand enough about bitcoin to be able to discern that SegWit is, in fact, block size increase to up to 4MB, hang out.
    - blusterXY 9y ago
      ironic
    - uncletammy 9y ago
      > Not only are you linking to reddit... Yep, we certainly live in strange times when the most useful source for information about certain financial markets is Reddit. That is truly the case though. Most of the active developers for every client as well as the largest stakeholders in the entire crypto ecosystem are on Reddit. >... you're linking to the sub reddit with the least educated bitcoin users in it Nope. They are linking to the sub where the least educated people's voices are still allowed to be heard. The other subreddit has been turned into the very thing Bitcoin was built to destroy. > ... SegWit is, in fact, block size increase to up to 4MB You're welcome to discuss this opinión over at https://reddit.com/r/btc https://reddit.com/r/btc EDIT: formatting
  - CryptoPunk 9y ago
    This isn't the "prevailing theory". This is FUD: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/6yqk8i/the_truth_about_bitfinex_and_tether/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/6yqk8i/the_truth...
mrmcd 9y ago
Or more accurately, a JP Morgan customer bought a Bitcoin ETN.
kanwisher 9y ago
Its not clear to me how this proves they are buying it? Is there some further background around this. Perhaps as other posters suggested, its for a client
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  It probably is. But as we've seen with ICOs, the average crypto-currency nerd is not very smart.
akhatri_aus 9y ago
Or better described, they bought securities on the behalf of one of their clients using a nominee account. They didn't buy it for themselves.
legulere 9y ago
Bitcoin is becoming solely a speculation object with great negative effects on the environment.
- kneel 9y ago
  Also the currency of choice in the billion dollar drug market.
  - companyhen 9y ago
    Isn't fiat the largest drug currency by far? I assume in crypto that would be Monero or some other privacy focused coin nowadays.
    - kneel 9y ago
      Shapeshift to Monero before or after! Doesn't really matter. Try buying cocaine from your local neighborhood cartel, contrast that to receiving shipments in the mail. World of difference as far as safety/security.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      The difference is that it is likely that a majority of Bitcoin transactions for goods and services are for drugs, ransoms, and other illegal purposes because it is wildly inefficient to use as a payment system for legitimate transactions, due to high transaction fees, long confirmation times, and low merchant acceptance. The vast majority of transactions in US dollars, on the other hand, are legitimate.
  - espitia 9y ago
    What currency is not being used in the drug market? I would love to have a rational debate and hear objective arguments agaisnt bitcoin vs gold that can be applied uniquely to bitcoin or rather that dont apply to both. Scarcity? No intrinsic value? Speculative? Thefts? Used in illicit ways? All these apply to both gold and bitcoin. "Gold has been historically valuable to humans". So have many other rocks, flowers, spices, etc. I am geniuenly interested in seeing why Bitcoin should fail as being a store of value.
patrickg_zill 9y ago
There are so many cases of JPM/Goldman/etc. advising customers of 1 direction while they themselves, do the exact opposite, it is no longer noteworthy... just cheerfully accept and internalize that they are SCUM and get on with your life.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  JP Morgan Chase's prop trading desk isn't part of JP Morgan Securities, Inc.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  JP Morgan Chase's prop trading desk isn't part of JP Morgan Securities, Ltd.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  JP Morgan Chase's prop trading desk isn't part of JP Morgan Securities Ltd.
ddmma 9y ago
Follow the cheese.. JPMorgan's top quant strategist, echoing CEO, compares bitcoin to 'pyramid scheme' https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/09/15/jpmorgans-top-quant-strategist-echoing-ceo-compares-bitcoin-to-pyramid-scheme.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/09/15/jpmorgans-top-quant-stra...
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago
  I wonder what they'd call the Federal Reserve, a private entity that's accountable to nobody.
  - IncRnd 9y ago
    Exactly. Considering they are a member of the federal reserve and a benefit of the structure, they won't say anything.
    - ddmma 9y ago
      So strategically you have to say one thing and do the opposite... Bloomberg / cnbc and others classic media propaganda brings profit to whom pays more
  - ddmma 9y ago
    they might say just anything in order to get the lowest bid
sprw121 9y ago
I've been following bitcoin for a while and understand that there's been interesting stuff going on the the space for a while. That said I really can't understand what fundamentals could possibly be driving the recent price rally. I started to get into it more heavily back in late 2016 when there was legitimate volume and fundaments due to use as a instrument to avoid Chinese currency controls. But now it seems like it's solely a speculative thing, albeit with some relationship with the greater blockchain ecosystem. Even if blockchain technologies do take off, why would bitcoin benefit or gain a some fundamentals in the market?
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  It's important to understand that Bitcoin is a new asset class we haven't really seen before-- it's the first technological money. So, it's "market cap" is not based on shares like a stock is, it's more like other forms of money. Yet its price is the result of it going thru the technology adoption lifecycle, and it keeps jumping up as inflation slows and ever wider groups of adopters start owning some. In the past year, it has been made much more easily owned and accessible as an investment in South Korea and Japan, and of course it is highly relevant to the Chinese. These trends will continue for awhile. It will be "speculative" until it is mainstream. The only thing making it "speculative" is that it isn't more widely adopted, but to be widely adopted there will have to be much higher prices, given the very limited supply. There's not going to be enough bitcoin for every millionaire in the world to own even one of them.
  - sprw121 9y ago
    My understand was that much of the innovations is happening with the general set of blockchain technologies, most of it happening on chains other than BTC (ETH). Why should bitcoin be correlated with them?
    - kobeya 9y ago
      There is plenty of innovation on the bitcoin platform.
  - 9y ago
ionwake 9y ago
Can someone be kind enough to explain how they filtered the results to produce the resulting page linked by OP? https://www.nordnet.dk/mux/popups/marknaden/aktiehemsidan/avslut.html?containerid=avslut&identifier=113749&marketplace=11&limit=100000 https://www.nordnet.dk/mux/popups/marknaden/aktiehemsidan/av... There seems to be an identifier, but not sure what it pertains to. Thank you for your help !

116 points by js7745 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

rothbardrand 9y ago

FYI- Myself and almost all the hardcore bitcoiners I know feel the recent price drop was due to China, not Dimon. Dimon has been making these pronouncements for years, and things had already started to turn with the rumors coming out of china. Even then the recent drop was basically just a big trading opportunity-- the rumors kept building and once an exchange said they were going to shut down, all the whales piled in at once... to kill the price and take profits and drive out the weak hands. And then when the other exchanges were clearly going to shut down and all the shorts had been built up, these same whales piled in at once again to get coins at a lower price. Thats why the move is so dramatic and so quick. I don't think this was collusion. I don't think this was coordinated or communicated or even intentional-- it was just an obvious trade and so a bunch of people jumped on it. One thing about BTC is that it is a free market, and that means you don't have market makers who act as stops on price movements (or trading hours, LOL!) and so things are very different there. This is why the general advice is HODL. Just buy bitcoin using dollar cost averaging, don't risk too much and hold it. Timing the market is a PITA, and I'm convinced impossible on the micro. On the macro scale, though, HODL is the best strategy. PS; here by HODL I mean "hold on for dear life". Don't get shaken out of your coins by roller coaster weeks like this one.

21 9y ago
China was the trigger. But it was not the reason. The reason was the incredible appreciation over the last year. A meaningful correction was imminent. I still don't think it is done. I would expect to see 1500 again before the next leg up. But you are right, trying to nail the bottom is not a good strategy.
- jstandard 9y ago
  On what basis do you expect to see 1500?
  - 21 9y ago
    Previous Bitcoin spikes, my financial markets experience. Like I said, if you want in, get in. But if you are not particularly itching at the moment, waiting for a MAYBE 1500 is much better.
- kobeya 9y ago
  NVDA has had some incredible appreciation. It outperformed BTC in 2016. Should I short it then?
  - akvadrako 9y ago
    NVDA was a great buy a year ago but the current price only seems fair in a very optimistic scenario. I wouldn't short it, but there isn't much hope it'll go higher.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      Okay, same question for AAPL. Point is good performance doesn't automatically mean a bubble.
      - 21 9y ago
        There is a difference between good performance and parabolic increase fueled by FOMO. Not to mention that bitcoin has a history of these spikes and busts - 2011, 2013, now
paulsutter 9y ago
Hodl isn't an acronym: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0 132 pages of comments
- natch 9y ago
  I think the commenter knew that and was being cheeky with the acronym.
  - dvt 9y ago
    It's not an acronym, it's an enthusiastic misspelling.
    - IncRnd 9y ago
      In this case it's also a backronym, which is an ancroynm.
    - natch 9y ago
      Yeah... that's why I said it was cheeky. Whoosh.
      - dvt 9y ago
        Whoops :)
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  "Here by HODL I mean".... pretty much makes it explicit what I am meaning by the term... which has been used in different ways. You are linking to the origination of the meme, like I've somehow made an error by specifying the specific use I'm intending.... which only reveals you're less familiar with the term than me.
  - y4mi 9y ago
    He isnt complaining about your intended meaning. He is complaining about your spelling of the term. It shouldn't be in caps because it's an intentional misspelling, not a sentence reduced to each words first letter
dgut 9y ago
What do you mean by "hardcore bitoiner"? Just curious.
- senatorobama 9y ago
  He uses the colloquialisms of a day-trader. I worry about his future.
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  I work in the industry and am pretty well connected to core. I've worked for and founded startups in this industry. The sibling comments insults are too typical for hacker news.
- sbenitoj 9y ago
  He means he has coinmarketcap.com AND coincap.io opened in two different tabs at all times to ensure he never misses a price move.
nosuchthing 9y ago
Prevailing theory is that the price is manipulated by the bitcoin central bank, aka Bitfinex's Tether minting & counterfeiting scheme. https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7059hr/more_25_million_tethers_generated_today/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7059hr/more_25_million... https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/6xpddt/as_20m_more_tether_are_issued_today_i_think_its/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/6xpddt/as_20m_more_tet... https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  Not only are you linking to reddit, you're linking to the sub reddit with the least educated bitcoin users in it. That sub reddit is where people who don't understand enough about bitcoin to be able to discern that SegWit is, in fact, block size increase to up to 4MB, hang out.
  - blusterXY 9y ago
    ironic
  - uncletammy 9y ago
    > Not only are you linking to reddit... Yep, we certainly live in strange times when the most useful source for information about certain financial markets is Reddit. That is truly the case though. Most of the active developers for every client as well as the largest stakeholders in the entire crypto ecosystem are on Reddit. >... you're linking to the sub reddit with the least educated bitcoin users in it Nope. They are linking to the sub where the least educated people's voices are still allowed to be heard. The other subreddit has been turned into the very thing Bitcoin was built to destroy. > ... SegWit is, in fact, block size increase to up to 4MB You're welcome to discuss this opinión over at https://reddit.com/r/btc https://reddit.com/r/btc EDIT: formatting
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  This isn't the "prevailing theory". This is FUD: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/6yqk8i/the_truth_about_bitfinex_and_tether/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/6yqk8i/the_truth...

mrmcd 9y ago

Or more accurately, a JP Morgan customer bought a Bitcoin ETN.

kanwisher 9y ago

Its not clear to me how this proves they are buying it? Is there some further background around this. Perhaps as other posters suggested, its for a client

dingo_bat 9y ago
It probably is. But as we've seen with ICOs, the average crypto-currency nerd is not very smart.

akhatri_aus 9y ago

Or better described, they bought securities on the behalf of one of their clients using a nominee account. They didn't buy it for themselves.

legulere 9y ago

Bitcoin is becoming solely a speculation object with great negative effects on the environment.

kneel 9y ago
Also the currency of choice in the billion dollar drug market.
- companyhen 9y ago
  Isn't fiat the largest drug currency by far? I assume in crypto that would be Monero or some other privacy focused coin nowadays.
  - kneel 9y ago
    Shapeshift to Monero before or after! Doesn't really matter. Try buying cocaine from your local neighborhood cartel, contrast that to receiving shipments in the mail. World of difference as far as safety/security.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    The difference is that it is likely that a majority of Bitcoin transactions for goods and services are for drugs, ransoms, and other illegal purposes because it is wildly inefficient to use as a payment system for legitimate transactions, due to high transaction fees, long confirmation times, and low merchant acceptance. The vast majority of transactions in US dollars, on the other hand, are legitimate.
- espitia 9y ago
  What currency is not being used in the drug market? I would love to have a rational debate and hear objective arguments agaisnt bitcoin vs gold that can be applied uniquely to bitcoin or rather that dont apply to both. Scarcity? No intrinsic value? Speculative? Thefts? Used in illicit ways? All these apply to both gold and bitcoin. "Gold has been historically valuable to humans". So have many other rocks, flowers, spices, etc. I am geniuenly interested in seeing why Bitcoin should fail as being a store of value.

patrickg_zill 9y ago

There are so many cases of JPM/Goldman/etc. advising customers of 1 direction while they themselves, do the exact opposite, it is no longer noteworthy... just cheerfully accept and internalize that they are SCUM and get on with your life.

lern_too_spel 9y ago
JP Morgan Chase's prop trading desk isn't part of JP Morgan Securities, Inc.
lern_too_spel 9y ago
JP Morgan Chase's prop trading desk isn't part of JP Morgan Securities, Ltd.
lern_too_spel 9y ago
JP Morgan Chase's prop trading desk isn't part of JP Morgan Securities Ltd.

ddmma 9y ago

Follow the cheese.. JPMorgan's top quant strategist, echoing CEO, compares bitcoin to 'pyramid scheme' https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/09/15/jpmorgans-top-quant-strategist-echoing-ceo-compares-bitcoin-to-pyramid-scheme.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/09/15/jpmorgans-top-quant-stra...

ShabbosGoy 9y ago
I wonder what they'd call the Federal Reserve, a private entity that's accountable to nobody.
- IncRnd 9y ago
  Exactly. Considering they are a member of the federal reserve and a benefit of the structure, they won't say anything.
  - ddmma 9y ago
    So strategically you have to say one thing and do the opposite... Bloomberg / cnbc and others classic media propaganda brings profit to whom pays more
- ddmma 9y ago
  they might say just anything in order to get the lowest bid

sprw121 9y ago

I've been following bitcoin for a while and understand that there's been interesting stuff going on the the space for a while. That said I really can't understand what fundamentals could possibly be driving the recent price rally. I started to get into it more heavily back in late 2016 when there was legitimate volume and fundaments due to use as a instrument to avoid Chinese currency controls. But now it seems like it's solely a speculative thing, albeit with some relationship with the greater blockchain ecosystem. Even if blockchain technologies do take off, why would bitcoin benefit or gain a some fundamentals in the market?

rothbardrand 9y ago
It's important to understand that Bitcoin is a new asset class we haven't really seen before-- it's the first technological money. So, it's "market cap" is not based on shares like a stock is, it's more like other forms of money. Yet its price is the result of it going thru the technology adoption lifecycle, and it keeps jumping up as inflation slows and ever wider groups of adopters start owning some. In the past year, it has been made much more easily owned and accessible as an investment in South Korea and Japan, and of course it is highly relevant to the Chinese. These trends will continue for awhile. It will be "speculative" until it is mainstream. The only thing making it "speculative" is that it isn't more widely adopted, but to be widely adopted there will have to be much higher prices, given the very limited supply. There's not going to be enough bitcoin for every millionaire in the world to own even one of them.
- sprw121 9y ago
  My understand was that much of the innovations is happening with the general set of blockchain technologies, most of it happening on chains other than BTC (ETH). Why should bitcoin be correlated with them?
  - kobeya 9y ago
    There is plenty of innovation on the bitcoin platform.
- 9y ago

ionwake 9y ago

Can someone be kind enough to explain how they filtered the results to produce the resulting page linked by OP? https://www.nordnet.dk/mux/popups/marknaden/aktiehemsidan/avslut.html?containerid=avslut&identifier=113749&marketplace=11&limit=100000 https://www.nordnet.dk/mux/popups/marknaden/aktiehemsidan/av... There seems to be an identifier, but not sure what it pertains to. Thank you for your help !