6 ms·

Selective policy enforcement like this are exactly why being a common carrier makes more sense.

weberc2 9y ago
While I agree that Google has too much of a monopoly over Android apps to be able to make the "It's our platform, get bent" argument, they also have a lot of products or services where they should be able to regulate the content. In my opinion, it would be a shame if we applied the same rule to all of their services. EDIT: Could the downvoters please explain what they disagree with or why this post is low quality, if only for my edification? Is it controversial to think Google's control over the Android app store constitutes a monopoly, deserving special regulation? Or maybe that we should be nuanced about which services should be regulated as a utility? I'm open to persuasion here.
majormajor 9y ago
You think an app store should be a common carrier? Should WalMart also, then? Why wouldn't a store get to pick what they carry? Everything they carry affects their reputation and appearance, after all.
- jcriddle4 9y ago
  You jest about WalMart but actually if they are a monopoly then yes they could be though of as common carrier. A much better solution is to break them into pieces.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    "Could be" is not "should be." I would argue that neither should be thought of as a common carrier. There's no natural barrier preventing you from distributing code through other means to run on Android devices, or from setting up your own store to compete with Walmart (probably Amazon is the better parallel here). I don't think "remove any editorial discretion" is a useful answer to any of these scenarios. Decentralization and lack of control is not the panacea that the the-internet-should-be-radically-open crowd thinks, for reasons that a brief history of (mis)use and tragedy-of-the-commons type scenarios illustrate. But maybe I should hedge this position by learning to write malware so I can have a leg up when the floodgates open. :) EDIT: Animats makes a great point above in his comparison to railroads. Very apt-sounding comparison. Slides my thoughts around to consider that the difference today is how low the stakes are for would-be content creators - in the past you were much more likely to need a business case to justify, today things are so cheap you might just write an app to troll. If there are policy changes needed, seems like that shift is where they would come from, and that we haven't really talked about it from that side much.
- LukeShu 9y ago
  The difference is that many phones come with the the Google Play store on them, and "Allow installation of apps from unknown sources" locked off. I don't know what the metaphor would be; if a good chunk of cars were somehow locked where you couldn't drive to other stores than WalMart, and WalMart were involved in the production of those cars?
  - majormajor 9y ago
    This is a good point, but also suggestive of the needed remedy being something other than "force the play store open" more akin to "ensure the underlying platforms are more open." I have much more problem with forcing someone to distribute things than I do with forcing them to allow other distribution methods.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      To play Devil's Advocate, should a company be forced to bake a cake for gay people? Should they be forced to serve minorities? I think we have decided the answer is yes.
      - majormajor 9y ago
        There are interesting aspects there, but the idea of protected classes vs unprotected ones and restricting discrimination based on that isn't one I have a huge problem with. I don't believe that a cake store having to serve minorities needs to imply that they have to be willing, say, to create cakes with arbitrary recipes. Could be an issue that comes up in the future with food allergy stuff, though, but as it is today that's not protected, and I feel it would be ludicrous to force shops to be "common carriers" that have to cook whatever the customer wants—of course, there are significant level-of-market-control differences here too.
        KGIII 9y ago
        It's not just about protected classes, it's about equal service for all. Buggered if I have a solution, I just know these sorts of things are problems.
- CM30 9y ago
  The difference is that by default, Google's app store is the only option on Android devices and Apple's one is the only option on iOS devices. This means being banned from one basically means your app or service can't become popular on those platforms, especially with the mainstream user (who doesn't root their devices). Walmart and other large retailers have alternatives available in most areas, and it's incredibly easy to choose to shop in one of these alternatives as well.
  - JohnTHaller 9y ago
    Anyone can sideload apps on Android. iOS is a different story.
    - lokedhs 9y ago
      "Anyone" can sideload applications on Android in the same way as "anyone" can change the drive belt on their own car. Your statement may be true in the literal sense of the word, but that that is not the standard by which antitrust is decided. Microsoft was convicted on an antitrust charge, while "anyone" still could install Linux on their computer, or buy a Mac.
      - JohnTHaller 9y ago
        Android doesn't control 96% of the desktop market. You can thank the even-more-locked-down iOS for Android not being a monopoly.
cookiecaper 9y ago
Yes. Tech VCs hate to hear it, but things like Facebook are really pieces of telecommunication infrastructure, and they have a moral duty to carry their users' communications reliably and without interference, regardless of their opinion of those communications. Google's Android store is slightly different, but this applies equally to many of Google's enterprises too. Something has to give. Ideally it would be the CFAA and copyright synergy that makes online incumbents virtually impossible to beat (right now, the oft-cited "network effect" has little to do with the difficulty of competing with a major player, as there are much more significant legal barriers at play). ---- Reply to sibling comment from majormajor which I typed up but am not allowed to post: "Because Walmart isn't sitting in your pantry and throwing non-Walmart items off your shelves. Google is doing the digital equivalent of this on Android devices." Posting this here because HN classifies content critical of running database clusters on Kubernetes as a "flame war". Correspondingly, they throttled my account for holding a professional, calm, and even-handed discussion on that subject, and I can't post replies any more for some hours. The thread that got me throttled can be found at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14453705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14453705 ; judge for yourselves whether this constitutes a "flame war". Really kind of appropriate to hit this issue in a thread about lumbering tech monoliths abusing their control over user attention. --- Triple-edit: it's interesting that comments that point out HN's censorship tank so quickly. Is the intent to get the score so low that they can "flag" it off the page and keep it safe from other readers' attention? You wouldn't think HN would do that, but then, you wouldn't think they'd limit an account for expressing skepticism over Kubernetes either...
- majormajor 9y ago
  1-on-1 or group messaging is close to telecom infrastructure. Facebook posts are not. They're much closer to print or broadcast media, which has long been regulated differently and not in an "anything goes regardless of the publisher's thoughts" style. And same with digital stores corresponding much more to physical stores than telecom infrastructure. If you have a counterexample of a business being forced to act as a public distributor of any anonymous person's content, I would appreciate it, because I can't think of one. Having the right to share your opinion is not the same as others having to help you propagate it. EDIT: see above updated comment referencing railroads link from Animats

While I agree that Google has too much of a monopoly over Android apps to be able to make the "It's our platform, get bent" argument, they also have a lot of products or services where they should be able to regulate the content. In my opinion, it would be a shame if we applied the same rule to all of their services. EDIT: Could the downvoters please explain what they disagree with or why this post is low quality, if only for my edification? Is it controversial to think Google's control over the Android app store constitutes a monopoly, deserving special regulation? Or maybe that we should be nuanced about which services should be regulated as a utility? I'm open to persuasion here.

majormajor 9y ago

You think an app store should be a common carrier? Should WalMart also, then? Why wouldn't a store get to pick what they carry? Everything they carry affects their reputation and appearance, after all.

jcriddle4 9y ago
You jest about WalMart but actually if they are a monopoly then yes they could be though of as common carrier. A much better solution is to break them into pieces.
- majormajor 9y ago
  "Could be" is not "should be." I would argue that neither should be thought of as a common carrier. There's no natural barrier preventing you from distributing code through other means to run on Android devices, or from setting up your own store to compete with Walmart (probably Amazon is the better parallel here). I don't think "remove any editorial discretion" is a useful answer to any of these scenarios. Decentralization and lack of control is not the panacea that the the-internet-should-be-radically-open crowd thinks, for reasons that a brief history of (mis)use and tragedy-of-the-commons type scenarios illustrate. But maybe I should hedge this position by learning to write malware so I can have a leg up when the floodgates open. :) EDIT: Animats makes a great point above in his comparison to railroads. Very apt-sounding comparison. Slides my thoughts around to consider that the difference today is how low the stakes are for would-be content creators - in the past you were much more likely to need a business case to justify, today things are so cheap you might just write an app to troll. If there are policy changes needed, seems like that shift is where they would come from, and that we haven't really talked about it from that side much.
LukeShu 9y ago
The difference is that many phones come with the the Google Play store on them, and "Allow installation of apps from unknown sources" locked off. I don't know what the metaphor would be; if a good chunk of cars were somehow locked where you couldn't drive to other stores than WalMart, and WalMart were involved in the production of those cars?
- majormajor 9y ago
  This is a good point, but also suggestive of the needed remedy being something other than "force the play store open" more akin to "ensure the underlying platforms are more open." I have much more problem with forcing someone to distribute things than I do with forcing them to allow other distribution methods.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    To play Devil's Advocate, should a company be forced to bake a cake for gay people? Should they be forced to serve minorities? I think we have decided the answer is yes.
    - majormajor 9y ago
      There are interesting aspects there, but the idea of protected classes vs unprotected ones and restricting discrimination based on that isn't one I have a huge problem with. I don't believe that a cake store having to serve minorities needs to imply that they have to be willing, say, to create cakes with arbitrary recipes. Could be an issue that comes up in the future with food allergy stuff, though, but as it is today that's not protected, and I feel it would be ludicrous to force shops to be "common carriers" that have to cook whatever the customer wants—of course, there are significant level-of-market-control differences here too.
      - KGIII 9y ago
        It's not just about protected classes, it's about equal service for all. Buggered if I have a solution, I just know these sorts of things are problems.
CM30 9y ago
The difference is that by default, Google's app store is the only option on Android devices and Apple's one is the only option on iOS devices. This means being banned from one basically means your app or service can't become popular on those platforms, especially with the mainstream user (who doesn't root their devices). Walmart and other large retailers have alternatives available in most areas, and it's incredibly easy to choose to shop in one of these alternatives as well.
- JohnTHaller 9y ago
  Anyone can sideload apps on Android. iOS is a different story.
  - lokedhs 9y ago
    "Anyone" can sideload applications on Android in the same way as "anyone" can change the drive belt on their own car. Your statement may be true in the literal sense of the word, but that that is not the standard by which antitrust is decided. Microsoft was convicted on an antitrust charge, while "anyone" still could install Linux on their computer, or buy a Mac.
    - JohnTHaller 9y ago
      Android doesn't control 96% of the desktop market. You can thank the even-more-locked-down iOS for Android not being a monopoly.

cookiecaper 9y ago

Yes. Tech VCs hate to hear it, but things like Facebook are really pieces of telecommunication infrastructure, and they have a moral duty to carry their users' communications reliably and without interference, regardless of their opinion of those communications. Google's Android store is slightly different, but this applies equally to many of Google's enterprises too. Something has to give. Ideally it would be the CFAA and copyright synergy that makes online incumbents virtually impossible to beat (right now, the oft-cited "network effect" has little to do with the difficulty of competing with a major player, as there are much more significant legal barriers at play). ---- Reply to sibling comment from majormajor which I typed up but am not allowed to post: "Because Walmart isn't sitting in your pantry and throwing non-Walmart items off your shelves. Google is doing the digital equivalent of this on Android devices." Posting this here because HN classifies content critical of running database clusters on Kubernetes as a "flame war". Correspondingly, they throttled my account for holding a professional, calm, and even-handed discussion on that subject, and I can't post replies any more for some hours. The thread that got me throttled can be found at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14453705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14453705 ; judge for yourselves whether this constitutes a "flame war". Really kind of appropriate to hit this issue in a thread about lumbering tech monoliths abusing their control over user attention. --- Triple-edit: it's interesting that comments that point out HN's censorship tank so quickly. Is the intent to get the score so low that they can "flag" it off the page and keep it safe from other readers' attention? You wouldn't think HN would do that, but then, you wouldn't think they'd limit an account for expressing skepticism over Kubernetes either...

majormajor 9y ago
1-on-1 or group messaging is close to telecom infrastructure. Facebook posts are not. They're much closer to print or broadcast media, which has long been regulated differently and not in an "anything goes regardless of the publisher's thoughts" style. And same with digital stores corresponding much more to physical stores than telecom infrastructure. If you have a counterexample of a business being forced to act as a public distributor of any anonymous person's content, I would appreciate it, because I can't think of one. Having the right to share your opinion is not the same as others having to help you propagate it. EDIT: see above updated comment referencing railroads link from Animats