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Actually: >>Most of the time for biological intelligence there isn't an oracle describing the truth at every moment of life This is false for most of learning
by eanzenberg 9y ago
Actually:
>>Most of the time for biological intelligence there isn't an oracle describing the truth at every moment of life
This is false for most of learning of human intelligence. Most of schooled human intelligence looks like supervised learning.
Innate intelligence and other animal intelligence looks like pre-trained models and some reinforcement learning.
- 31reasons 9y agoI think innate intelligence/ animal intelligence is developed by evolutionary algorithm. You don't need to do back prop for it. If the network is wrong, the animal just dies.
- fngl51 9y agoI would agree with this approach. In evolution, it would be the equivalent to a conditional lethal mutation. In humans and even non-humans, may behaviors are learned through a form of adaptive behavior that oftentimes becomes a form of abductive reasoning. What is learned is "good enough" to serve as ground truth until there is evidence to contradict.
- eanzenberg 9y agoWhat you call "evolutionary algorithm" is just a pre-trained model your DNA created. That took 3.5 billion years to get to this point.
- iandanforth 9y agoCan we go with 'incomplete' rather than 'false'? :) One of the most interesting areas of study for me is early childhood motor learning which is a fascinating combination of unsupervised, reinforced, and imitation learning. There are even significant intrinsic knowledge (instinctual/reflexive/morphological) effects. Also I really like to encompass non-human learning when talking about this stuff to remind myself of all the work nature did before we got to cultural transmission of knowledge.
- eanzenberg 9y agoPlease describe what "unsupervised learning" a child may be doing.
- function_seven 9y agoLanguage acquisition. Sure, parents will point at an object and say, "Ball", "Chair", "Food", etc. But they don't do this for the conjunctions and interjections and prepositions. Nor for most of the 10,000 words a child will learn in the first few years of life. Children learn the rules of grammar long before they realize there are any rules at all. Tenses and plurals, etc.
- eanzenberg 9y agoIt's amazing how little people on this site know or understand intelligence, artificial and human. You would be surprised how much infants learn from listening around them and how long it takes to learn that language, and how a brain interprets language was formed through so many years of evolution to be highly tuned to learn language fast.
- function_seven 9y agoWe're arguing past each other then. I have no doubt that evolution is the essential thing that made us capable of unsupervised learning. That's not the central point of the debate for me. What I'm talking about is the problem of replicating that ability (unsupervised learning) in AI systems. We don't have the luxury of billions of years of evolution to do it. So we need to engineer another way. I understood your previous comments as diminishing the sheer amount of unsupervised learning we do as humans.
- eanzenberg 9y agoYes you're an idiot with an army of trolls ready to downvote me. Read the above comments to get a sense of how much of an idiot you are about intelligence.
- chubot 9y ago"Schooled human intelligence"? What does that even mean? I think you are severely underestimating humans, and probably animals too. People have multiple modes of learning. You can try to get an A in school ("optimize" for the objective function), but you also might be skeptical of what the teacher tells you. Likewise you might be skeptical of what you read in a book. You can also correct the teacher based on common sense and what you already know. Currently, a computer can do no such thing. I think he's right that there is a fundamental difference. Humans also learn from extremely small amounts of data. (Sometimes they learn badly, but they can change their minds, or not if they still manage to navigate the world.)
- eanzenberg 9y agoHow >>Humans also learn from extremely small amounts of data. (Sometimes they learn badly, but they can change their minds, or not if they still manage to navigate the world.) ?? What does this mean? That 18 years of schooling is a "small amount of data"? Do you think you show 2 pictures of an airplane to a child and they know what an airplane is? Do you even have kids?
- felippee 9y agoExcept that by the age you reach school you already know amazing wealth of knowledge about the world and how it works, particularly the kind of commonsense knowledge that AI has always had enormous trouble to acquire. See Moravec's paradox.
- eanzenberg 9y ago5 year olds "know amazing wealth of knowledge about the world and how it works"?? Que? How many 5 year olds do you know or interact with?
- function_seven 9y agoYou're severely underestimating children (or over-estimating the current state of AI). 5 year-olds have better natural language skills than any AI in existence, better motor and navigation skills than the most advanced DARPA robot, better mood recognition capabilities, etc. You appear to be thinking of just facts and figures. AI is not that.
- eanzenberg 9y agoWhen did I mention AI?
- felippee 9y agoYour statement is exactly the incarnation of Moravec's paradox. You don't see the amazing things that a 5yr old (even a 2yr old) can do, exactly because these things are completely obvious to us. They become much less obvious once you want your robot to be able to do these same things. At that point these things become horribly difficult.
- zardo 9y agoHow many robots have you interacted with? 5-year old humans have picked up a lot. For instance, I knew about the dangers that hot surfaces, sharp objects, angry cats, and big sisters represented. I had learned to walk, run, swim, ride a bicycle, and catch a ball.
- cscurmudgeon 9y agoAhh yes who doesn't remember their days in school doing gradient descent and backprop on millions of samples of text describing the solar system.