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After the Avro Arrow project was cancelled a number of the employees involved joined NASA to assist in the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs. It's a shame tha

After the Avro Arrow project was cancelled a number of the employees involved joined NASA to assist in the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs. It's a shame that the same kind of "brain drain" occurs to this day. Canada produces a lot of talented people and many of them head South.

eloff 9y ago
Not just Canada, the United States has been very successful in attracting top talent from all over the world. A large part of its success is due to that - the USA does not produce nearly enough STEM graduates domestically. A huge number of people come every year to study in US universities, still considered the best in the world in many cases, and many stay afterwards. I think that the USA could be considered to be an empire in decline once it can no longer attract the top talent worldwide, and once those people graduate and go back to their own countries instead of staying in the US. In the Canada case specifically, the pay gap for software engineers between the USA and Canada is about 2-3x if you're at the top of your field. The real mystery to me is why Canada has any software engineers at all. I'm a Canadian SE living in Canada currently and I wouldn't dream of working for any companies located here, including e.g. Amazon or IBM.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  There's a lot of inertia for some people to stay in one place, much less to change countries. Judging by Facebook, about ninety percent of my high school class in a small town in Texas stayed within a half hour's drive after 30 years. One of my coworkers in the 90's moved from Canada to Austin and eventually moved back to Canada. It was just cheaper to live in Canada with a family for him at that time, even with the pay disparity - and he was super talented in a niche field, I think the other major option for him at that time was California.
- bdamm 9y ago
  Then, who do you work for? Apologies for prying, but I couldn't help notice the "wouldn't dream of working for any companies located here" and "SE living in Canada".
  - allannienhuis 9y ago
    Lots of us work or freelance remotely for US based companies :)
- danudey 9y ago
  > The real mystery to me is why Canada has any software engineers at all. For all kinds of political and social reasons, I would never move to the US. Key examples: - The disaster that is the US health care system - Even more endemic systemic racism than Canada has - Even left-wing politicians are to the right of what I prefer in Canada All that, plus I'm not in this for the money. I make a comfortable living and live in a gorgeous city, and there aren't any cities in the US I would want to live in. I'm happy in Canada. I'd probably also be happy in Europe or even Asia, but I can't picture being happy in the US.
  - patrickg_zill 9y ago
    Having grown up in Canada, I would say that Canadians are in general, a nice bunch to be around; and that in itself is a benefit of living in Canada.
  - dogruck 9y ago
    Yes, but the top, hard driving, talent would make the trade and move to the US. Your prerogative is to kick back and chill up north. I'm not hatin -- just pointing out that you're not really a counter example to the point at hand.
    - fraqed 9y ago
      Maybe that's why Canadians are considered so nice, because all the "hard driving" types have left the country and gone, mostly, to the US.
      - dogruck 9y ago
        A reasonable theory. Agreed.
    - brailsafe 9y ago
      What a desperately condescending thing to say. Really it comes down to a matter of perspective on life and your definition of "hard-driving". If your definition of that is writing code for more money, then fine. Other people work a hell of a lot harder, in much worse conditions, for a lot less, and choose to do it in a place where they like to live and the people they enjoy being around. Pretty compelling to me.
- tensor 9y ago
  This would imply that someone making 150 CAD (for a senior top developer) would be making 450 USD. That doesn't match actual salary numbers from the field.
  - Kluny 9y ago
    Canadian software devs are making more like 40-80. Not too many at 150/he.
    - switchbak 9y ago
      Not sure where you live, or what you think the typical software dev does, but that seems extremely far off the mark in my experience, even for 10+ years ago.
      - 52-6F-62 9y ago
        Can confirm those numbers in the Toronto area. Maybe not at the absolute top end or the levels where job postings aren't even put out, but in the rank-and-file corporate and startup community, just take a look at any major job board lately.
        aianus 9y ago
        I was making $145k as a junior rails dev at my last job in Toronto and they're hiring nonstop. Message me on keybase if you want to chat or get an intro.
        drspacemonkey 9y ago
        Seriously? That's almost 35% more than I'm making as a senior Rails dev in Vancouver...
        switchbak 9y ago
        If you're maintaining old-school apps in old languages, or you don't have a degree. If you're talented, have marketable skills and an ability to promote yourself, you should be making at least 70k in most Canadian cities. Given the job market and cost of living increases in the last few years, this isn't particularly high. Anyone settling for 40k or so (and not fresh out of school) I think should take a close look at other opportunities.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  " the USA does not produce nearly enough STEM graduates domestically" They do, and so do most other countries. The US has a 'very large market' that is 'capital friendly' and has a lot of 'early adopters' and consumers that love the latest, newest fad. So, 'market dominance' is so many things will come from America. One of the reasons America pushes for 'free markets' is because there's no need for geostratic shennanigans otherwise. Ex: If Canada (or other countries) opened up their telecom sector to aquisition - even on 'even terms' - do you think Rogers, Telus and Bell (Canadian) would be buying up Verizon, TMobile and Sprint? No. The other way around. Canadian firms would be immediately aquired by American firms. Same for everything else. All of the 'top jobs' would go to the US, and the only thing left in Canada would be 'customer service' 'local marketing' and 'field ops'. The same thing for developing countries x100. 'Free Trade' plays very naturally into Americas strengths, and it's an easy line to promote, because the 'short term net advantages' are supposedly positive for everyone (though, generally capital). FYI - Canada/US comp. has a lot to do with Oil prices. Oil prices high = Canadian salaries almost at par with the us. (Remember that the vast majority of US STEMS are not earning 'high end Google salaries'). Low Oil prices means you can earn considerably more in the US.

eloff 9y ago

Not just Canada, the United States has been very successful in attracting top talent from all over the world. A large part of its success is due to that - the USA does not produce nearly enough STEM graduates domestically. A huge number of people come every year to study in US universities, still considered the best in the world in many cases, and many stay afterwards. I think that the USA could be considered to be an empire in decline once it can no longer attract the top talent worldwide, and once those people graduate and go back to their own countries instead of staying in the US. In the Canada case specifically, the pay gap for software engineers between the USA and Canada is about 2-3x if you're at the top of your field. The real mystery to me is why Canada has any software engineers at all. I'm a Canadian SE living in Canada currently and I wouldn't dream of working for any companies located here, including e.g. Amazon or IBM.

stevenwoo 9y ago
There's a lot of inertia for some people to stay in one place, much less to change countries. Judging by Facebook, about ninety percent of my high school class in a small town in Texas stayed within a half hour's drive after 30 years. One of my coworkers in the 90's moved from Canada to Austin and eventually moved back to Canada. It was just cheaper to live in Canada with a family for him at that time, even with the pay disparity - and he was super talented in a niche field, I think the other major option for him at that time was California.
bdamm 9y ago
Then, who do you work for? Apologies for prying, but I couldn't help notice the "wouldn't dream of working for any companies located here" and "SE living in Canada".
- allannienhuis 9y ago
  Lots of us work or freelance remotely for US based companies :)
danudey 9y ago
> The real mystery to me is why Canada has any software engineers at all. For all kinds of political and social reasons, I would never move to the US. Key examples: - The disaster that is the US health care system - Even more endemic systemic racism than Canada has - Even left-wing politicians are to the right of what I prefer in Canada All that, plus I'm not in this for the money. I make a comfortable living and live in a gorgeous city, and there aren't any cities in the US I would want to live in. I'm happy in Canada. I'd probably also be happy in Europe or even Asia, but I can't picture being happy in the US.
- patrickg_zill 9y ago
  Having grown up in Canada, I would say that Canadians are in general, a nice bunch to be around; and that in itself is a benefit of living in Canada.
- dogruck 9y ago
  Yes, but the top, hard driving, talent would make the trade and move to the US. Your prerogative is to kick back and chill up north. I'm not hatin -- just pointing out that you're not really a counter example to the point at hand.
  - fraqed 9y ago
    Maybe that's why Canadians are considered so nice, because all the "hard driving" types have left the country and gone, mostly, to the US.
    - dogruck 9y ago
      A reasonable theory. Agreed.
  - brailsafe 9y ago
    What a desperately condescending thing to say. Really it comes down to a matter of perspective on life and your definition of "hard-driving". If your definition of that is writing code for more money, then fine. Other people work a hell of a lot harder, in much worse conditions, for a lot less, and choose to do it in a place where they like to live and the people they enjoy being around. Pretty compelling to me.
tensor 9y ago
This would imply that someone making 150 CAD (for a senior top developer) would be making 450 USD. That doesn't match actual salary numbers from the field.
- Kluny 9y ago
  Canadian software devs are making more like 40-80. Not too many at 150/he.
  - switchbak 9y ago
    Not sure where you live, or what you think the typical software dev does, but that seems extremely far off the mark in my experience, even for 10+ years ago.
    - 52-6F-62 9y ago
      Can confirm those numbers in the Toronto area. Maybe not at the absolute top end or the levels where job postings aren't even put out, but in the rank-and-file corporate and startup community, just take a look at any major job board lately.
      - aianus 9y ago
        I was making $145k as a junior rails dev at my last job in Toronto and they're hiring nonstop. Message me on keybase if you want to chat or get an intro.
        drspacemonkey 9y ago
        Seriously? That's almost 35% more than I'm making as a senior Rails dev in Vancouver...
      - switchbak 9y ago
        If you're maintaining old-school apps in old languages, or you don't have a degree. If you're talented, have marketable skills and an ability to promote yourself, you should be making at least 70k in most Canadian cities. Given the job market and cost of living increases in the last few years, this isn't particularly high. Anyone settling for 40k or so (and not fresh out of school) I think should take a close look at other opportunities.
alexasmyths 9y ago
" the USA does not produce nearly enough STEM graduates domestically" They do, and so do most other countries. The US has a 'very large market' that is 'capital friendly' and has a lot of 'early adopters' and consumers that love the latest, newest fad. So, 'market dominance' is so many things will come from America. One of the reasons America pushes for 'free markets' is because there's no need for geostratic shennanigans otherwise. Ex: If Canada (or other countries) opened up their telecom sector to aquisition - even on 'even terms' - do you think Rogers, Telus and Bell (Canadian) would be buying up Verizon, TMobile and Sprint? No. The other way around. Canadian firms would be immediately aquired by American firms. Same for everything else. All of the 'top jobs' would go to the US, and the only thing left in Canada would be 'customer service' 'local marketing' and 'field ops'. The same thing for developing countries x100. 'Free Trade' plays very naturally into Americas strengths, and it's an easy line to promote, because the 'short term net advantages' are supposedly positive for everyone (though, generally capital). FYI - Canada/US comp. has a lot to do with Oil prices. Oil prices high = Canadian salaries almost at par with the us. (Remember that the vast majority of US STEMS are not earning 'high end Google salaries'). Low Oil prices means you can earn considerably more in the US.