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> 3. No devices. My daughter started getting hooked on to Ipad and one day, we went cold turkey and put it away. She only gets to watch TV now. No more eyes stu

> 3. No devices. My daughter started getting hooked on to Ipad and one day, we went cold turkey and put it away. She only gets to watch TV now. No more eyes stuck in an Ipad. Why exactly is TV (passive) better than an iPad (interactive)?

seandougall 9y ago
Our household got vastly easier, and our kids happier, when we did the opposite: got rid of the TV, and only watch shows on the iPad. The big TV screen was a constant suggestion looming over the living room. It's easier still when the iPad runs out of batteries; we just haven't managed to get rid of it entirely yet.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  I don't have any kids, but I still got rid of the TV. Passive, environmental entertainment is problematic. If you had a bowl of chocolate on your desk, it's easier to snack on them during the day - the same with media distractions. Now, anything I watch is something I specifically seek out - pull, not push. I do the same with video games, and I choose games that are more exiting, as opposed to long slogs - fixed-level/single-player FPS, or fixed length multiplayer sessions, as opposed to "stat-building" games, or candy-crunch "physiological manipulators".
  - thanatropism 9y ago
    But it's better to stretch your caloric intake over the day than have huge meals. I'm trying to do a schedule of snack bars over the afternoon and a small lunch now, over wanting to eat enough at noon to last until 9-10 PM.
    - balfirevic 9y ago
      It's not better (nor worse). For some people it makes it easer to eat less overall, for others it's the opposite.
Spooky23 9y ago
TV is less of a dopamine rush kind of thing. You need to be very careful with modern mobile games. I'll let my son play minecraft, do the "endless learning" games, Dr Seuss, movies, and a few other selected games. You need to avoid the skinner box games. Generally speaking, if it has a franchise endorsement (Star Wars, etc) it's garbage.
- spraak 9y ago
  > do the "endless learning" games, Dr Seuss, movies, and a few other selected games. You need to avoid the skinner box games. I'd be glad if you could share some of the games you approve of as my child is recently more interested. And what are 'skinner box' games?
  - SerLava 9y ago
    Skinner box essentially means slot machine. A tremendous amount of games on phones are either glorified slot machines, or a normal game with some kind of slot machine tacked on, such as a loot system. Some even produce loot that can be traded for real money... You have to vet every game now.
  - Isomatik 9y ago
    In general, any game that has a manufactured annoyance that can be bypassed immediately by paying money/watching an ad. Usually achieved by a stamina system (You can play up to 5 levels in 30 minutes, or play another immediately by paying), balancing play so playing without "Premium" items feels sluggish and uncompetitive (but not so sluggish that the game is unfun), and having a lot of gambling style elements to overcome the first two (No gems? You can spin the prize wheel once a day! Also, you logged in 3 days in a row! Have some gems!)
  - glogla 9y ago
    Take a look at this video [1] for explanation, and possibly other Extra Credits videos if you're interested in game design. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c
  - 9y ago
LeifCarrotson 9y ago
The passive TV can be less psychologically powerful than the interactive iPad. Sure, kids can still sit slack-jawed staring at some cartoons. The TV producers have learned how to maintain attention with rapid cuts, bright colors, loud sounds, and all the rest extremely well. And that's some pretty scary super-stimulation. But it's still less addictive than the iPad app that can use all the same outputs and adds interactive, Pavlovian feedback. Push button, get some meaningless numbers to increase: maybe you'll get lucky and they'll increase a lot this time! Keep trying! Check back in 30 seconds when that unlocks again! Some interaction can be educational, but there's more to the decision than the educational value, it's also somewhat about the addictive potential. My 11-month old likes to hold a phone when he can get one. He turns it over with impressive dexterity in his little hands. He enjoys his reflection, and the weight and shape of the things. I'm sure he's observed that Mom and Dad pick up and use these things frequently, as much as we try to limit it around him. Each time he gets a phone, we take it away, and trivially redirect his attention on something else. It's terrifying to me that in perhaps 5 years, the attention capture industry will be aided by virtual-reality devices, and my little kindergartner will need to develop the willpower to someday control his use of these future addiction machines. (And now, I'll ironically push "reply" in hopes that I'll see my HN karma increase a few points due to this comment.)
- jacobush 9y ago
  Karma +1
- spraak 9y ago
  > (And now, I'll ironically push "reply" in hopes that I'll see my HN karma increase a few points due to this comment.) Have my upvote! ;) (And now, I'll push "reply" with fear that my HN karma will decrease due to a meta-comment about up/downvoting)
- cracell 9y ago
  Not all apps are like that. For instance Sago Mini makes amazing apps that do not use addiction techniques to hook you. They are just fun and let your explore however you want. https://sagomini.com/apps/ https://sagomini.com/apps/ I completely agree that some apps are inappropriate for various ages though. Pretty much anything that purposely tries to addict the user should only be played by people who can handle the it. Some adults can't.
codegeek 9y ago
Personally, I prefer TV because we get to see what they are watching. Second, I am a bit concerned with a device like Ipad so close to their body (this could be just me but I am not sure about long term effects of this to a child who is barely 5). Not to mention that TV has limited options (kids pretty much watch cartoons) but with Ipad, the possibilites are endless. My daughter already knows how to unlock the ipad, start different apps and play youtube on the ipad etc. I am not against restricting anything honestly but when I saw that my daughter started telling us "leave me alone. I am watching ipad", that was the signal that she is getting addicted. Mind you, she is not even 5. With TV, it is not that bad as they watch it while doing other things like roaming around the living room etc. Much less addictive in our specific case at least. YMMV.
- wahern 9y ago
  "leave me alone. I am watching ipad" Imagine you lived in a house with no doors. People could come and go as they please, and they did. There wasn't any corner or closet where you were guaranteed solitude. Moreover, you were _stuck_ in that house, as you had no means to leave of your own accord, even just to walk down the block alone. I think my son first barked, "stop talking", to us before he was 2. That first time he was just tired of being peppered with questions and wanted to be let alone. No devices were involved. Sometimes he says that or something like it when he's being reprimanded, which is of course not acceptable. But in any event I've always tried to appreciate the sentiment. I appreciate (and require) solitude more than my wife, so perhaps I more sensitive to that need, or at least more credulous.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    That's awesome. Get your kid to do that with blocks, pen and paper or a toy.
thanatropism 9y ago
TV is social. Everyone is seeing it, which creates a whole world that can be talked about. As it is the world has too many +4 sigma cognitive skills (which will be partly IQ but also learned throughout life) with below-median social skills. It would be much, much more useful to have then be +3 sigma for cognitive skills and +1 sigma social skills. Useful for them and useful for society.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I don't think it's the case with TV today. Not anymore. There are too many channels, and also significant amount of people decided not to have TV. Watching Game of Thrones is social, whether you do it on TV or on-line. Watching a random TV program on a random TV channel is about as social as watching a random YouTube video.

seandougall 9y ago

Our household got vastly easier, and our kids happier, when we did the opposite: got rid of the TV, and only watch shows on the iPad. The big TV screen was a constant suggestion looming over the living room. It's easier still when the iPad runs out of batteries; we just haven't managed to get rid of it entirely yet.

Chris2048 9y ago
I don't have any kids, but I still got rid of the TV. Passive, environmental entertainment is problematic. If you had a bowl of chocolate on your desk, it's easier to snack on them during the day - the same with media distractions. Now, anything I watch is something I specifically seek out - pull, not push. I do the same with video games, and I choose games that are more exiting, as opposed to long slogs - fixed-level/single-player FPS, or fixed length multiplayer sessions, as opposed to "stat-building" games, or candy-crunch "physiological manipulators".
- thanatropism 9y ago
  But it's better to stretch your caloric intake over the day than have huge meals. I'm trying to do a schedule of snack bars over the afternoon and a small lunch now, over wanting to eat enough at noon to last until 9-10 PM.
  - balfirevic 9y ago
    It's not better (nor worse). For some people it makes it easer to eat less overall, for others it's the opposite.

Spooky23 9y ago

TV is less of a dopamine rush kind of thing. You need to be very careful with modern mobile games. I'll let my son play minecraft, do the "endless learning" games, Dr Seuss, movies, and a few other selected games. You need to avoid the skinner box games. Generally speaking, if it has a franchise endorsement (Star Wars, etc) it's garbage.

spraak 9y ago
> do the "endless learning" games, Dr Seuss, movies, and a few other selected games. You need to avoid the skinner box games. I'd be glad if you could share some of the games you approve of as my child is recently more interested. And what are 'skinner box' games?
- SerLava 9y ago
  Skinner box essentially means slot machine. A tremendous amount of games on phones are either glorified slot machines, or a normal game with some kind of slot machine tacked on, such as a loot system. Some even produce loot that can be traded for real money... You have to vet every game now.
- Isomatik 9y ago
  In general, any game that has a manufactured annoyance that can be bypassed immediately by paying money/watching an ad. Usually achieved by a stamina system (You can play up to 5 levels in 30 minutes, or play another immediately by paying), balancing play so playing without "Premium" items feels sluggish and uncompetitive (but not so sluggish that the game is unfun), and having a lot of gambling style elements to overcome the first two (No gems? You can spin the prize wheel once a day! Also, you logged in 3 days in a row! Have some gems!)
- glogla 9y ago
  Take a look at this video [1] for explanation, and possibly other Extra Credits videos if you're interested in game design. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c
- 9y ago

LeifCarrotson 9y ago

The passive TV can be less psychologically powerful than the interactive iPad. Sure, kids can still sit slack-jawed staring at some cartoons. The TV producers have learned how to maintain attention with rapid cuts, bright colors, loud sounds, and all the rest extremely well. And that's some pretty scary super-stimulation. But it's still less addictive than the iPad app that can use all the same outputs and adds interactive, Pavlovian feedback. Push button, get some meaningless numbers to increase: maybe you'll get lucky and they'll increase a lot this time! Keep trying! Check back in 30 seconds when that unlocks again! Some interaction can be educational, but there's more to the decision than the educational value, it's also somewhat about the addictive potential. My 11-month old likes to hold a phone when he can get one. He turns it over with impressive dexterity in his little hands. He enjoys his reflection, and the weight and shape of the things. I'm sure he's observed that Mom and Dad pick up and use these things frequently, as much as we try to limit it around him. Each time he gets a phone, we take it away, and trivially redirect his attention on something else. It's terrifying to me that in perhaps 5 years, the attention capture industry will be aided by virtual-reality devices, and my little kindergartner will need to develop the willpower to someday control his use of these future addiction machines. (And now, I'll ironically push "reply" in hopes that I'll see my HN karma increase a few points due to this comment.)

jacobush 9y ago
Karma +1
spraak 9y ago
> (And now, I'll ironically push "reply" in hopes that I'll see my HN karma increase a few points due to this comment.) Have my upvote! ;) (And now, I'll push "reply" with fear that my HN karma will decrease due to a meta-comment about up/downvoting)
cracell 9y ago
Not all apps are like that. For instance Sago Mini makes amazing apps that do not use addiction techniques to hook you. They are just fun and let your explore however you want. https://sagomini.com/apps/ https://sagomini.com/apps/ I completely agree that some apps are inappropriate for various ages though. Pretty much anything that purposely tries to addict the user should only be played by people who can handle the it. Some adults can't.

codegeek 9y ago

Personally, I prefer TV because we get to see what they are watching. Second, I am a bit concerned with a device like Ipad so close to their body (this could be just me but I am not sure about long term effects of this to a child who is barely 5). Not to mention that TV has limited options (kids pretty much watch cartoons) but with Ipad, the possibilites are endless. My daughter already knows how to unlock the ipad, start different apps and play youtube on the ipad etc. I am not against restricting anything honestly but when I saw that my daughter started telling us "leave me alone. I am watching ipad", that was the signal that she is getting addicted. Mind you, she is not even 5. With TV, it is not that bad as they watch it while doing other things like roaming around the living room etc. Much less addictive in our specific case at least. YMMV.

wahern 9y ago
"leave me alone. I am watching ipad" Imagine you lived in a house with no doors. People could come and go as they please, and they did. There wasn't any corner or closet where you were guaranteed solitude. Moreover, you were _stuck_ in that house, as you had no means to leave of your own accord, even just to walk down the block alone. I think my son first barked, "stop talking", to us before he was 2. That first time he was just tired of being peppered with questions and wanted to be let alone. No devices were involved. Sometimes he says that or something like it when he's being reprimanded, which is of course not acceptable. But in any event I've always tried to appreciate the sentiment. I appreciate (and require) solitude more than my wife, so perhaps I more sensitive to that need, or at least more credulous.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  That's awesome. Get your kid to do that with blocks, pen and paper or a toy.

thanatropism 9y ago

TV is social. Everyone is seeing it, which creates a whole world that can be talked about. As it is the world has too many +4 sigma cognitive skills (which will be partly IQ but also learned throughout life) with below-median social skills. It would be much, much more useful to have then be +3 sigma for cognitive skills and +1 sigma social skills. Useful for them and useful for society.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
I don't think it's the case with TV today. Not anymore. There are too many channels, and also significant amount of people decided not to have TV. Watching Game of Thrones is social, whether you do it on TV or on-line. Watching a random TV program on a random TV channel is about as social as watching a random YouTube video.