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I'm sure I'll get downvoted as well, but I do not get it either. What thing of merit or heroics did Bradley Manning do, other than gain publicity by becoming C

I'm sure I'll get downvoted as well, but I do not get it either. What thing of merit or heroics did Bradley Manning do, other than gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning, complaining about being deployed to Iraq, and leaking classified military documents? How is any of that heroic? I don't think Manning is a hero or the devil either. I just think he's a guy that did some stuff and made a bad choice for his own personal reasons. Don't we all do that, to one degree or another, with unfortunate frequency?

foldr 9y ago
>gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning I largely agree with you, but it's not fair to suggest that the gender change was a publicity stunt.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  I'm not saying it was. I'm simply stating that gender change is one of the few things Manning is known for.
LeifCarrotson 9y ago
"Leaking classified military documents" is a negative (but somewhat legitimate) framing of what transpired. Her complaints and gender issues are just distractions from the important issues; I agree that they're irrelevant. (Similarly, it's unproductive to consider Trump's fashion choices or Obama's distate for mayonnaise when their policy decisions are what actually affect billions of people - but people will always highlight anything that can enhance their own position and detract from their opponents. Ignore the gender issues and complaints, they are meaningless.) The alternative, positive framing is that she sacrificed a secure career to stop endemic corruption, war crimes, and violations of human rights described in the files she had access to. The cables and other files she leaked contained evidence of torture, of collusion, of abuses of power, and other atrocities, and bringing those into the public has hopefully reduced the rate at which those terrible things happen. On an individual level, rather than recognizing that she needed whistleblower protection, the government tortured and imprisoned her. Fortunately, a significant part of her sentence was commuted, but she still spent most of a decade in prison. She has helped to prevent terrible crimes from continuing, and personally suffered for it. That's heroic and meritorious.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  I disagree that exposing classified military secrets is heroic or meritorious. War is an ugly business and any view into any side of any war is going to reveal atrocious things. That's what happens during a campaign to kill people. So, were the secrets Manning risked everything to expose really that different from the day-to-day happenings of war? Just to touch on a couple of revelations in Manning's leaked documents: 1. The tortures and rapes Manning exposed were committed by Iraqi soldiers and police, which was business as usual under Sadam, and it is naive to think we could jump in and stop that ingrained behavior right away. 2. Soldiers trying to escape a deadly situation with guns blazing is hardly new to Afghanistan. 3. I don't see a problem with the U.S. targeting the leadership of the U.N. with intelligence campaigns. Are any of these things really big meritorious revelations? I mean we knew about the Iraqi torture and rape before Bush ever declared war on them, didn't we? One thing you seem to be glossing over is that Manning wanted out of the military anyway. He was upset about being shipped to Iraq and it is reasonable to posit that his leak was much more self-serving than heroic.

foldr 9y ago

>gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning I largely agree with you, but it's not fair to suggest that the gender change was a publicity stunt.

innocentoldguy 9y ago
I'm not saying it was. I'm simply stating that gender change is one of the few things Manning is known for.

LeifCarrotson 9y ago

"Leaking classified military documents" is a negative (but somewhat legitimate) framing of what transpired. Her complaints and gender issues are just distractions from the important issues; I agree that they're irrelevant. (Similarly, it's unproductive to consider Trump's fashion choices or Obama's distate for mayonnaise when their policy decisions are what actually affect billions of people - but people will always highlight anything that can enhance their own position and detract from their opponents. Ignore the gender issues and complaints, they are meaningless.) The alternative, positive framing is that she sacrificed a secure career to stop endemic corruption, war crimes, and violations of human rights described in the files she had access to. The cables and other files she leaked contained evidence of torture, of collusion, of abuses of power, and other atrocities, and bringing those into the public has hopefully reduced the rate at which those terrible things happen. On an individual level, rather than recognizing that she needed whistleblower protection, the government tortured and imprisoned her. Fortunately, a significant part of her sentence was commuted, but she still spent most of a decade in prison. She has helped to prevent terrible crimes from continuing, and personally suffered for it. That's heroic and meritorious.

innocentoldguy 9y ago
I disagree that exposing classified military secrets is heroic or meritorious. War is an ugly business and any view into any side of any war is going to reveal atrocious things. That's what happens during a campaign to kill people. So, were the secrets Manning risked everything to expose really that different from the day-to-day happenings of war? Just to touch on a couple of revelations in Manning's leaked documents: 1. The tortures and rapes Manning exposed were committed by Iraqi soldiers and police, which was business as usual under Sadam, and it is naive to think we could jump in and stop that ingrained behavior right away. 2. Soldiers trying to escape a deadly situation with guns blazing is hardly new to Afghanistan. 3. I don't see a problem with the U.S. targeting the leadership of the U.N. with intelligence campaigns. Are any of these things really big meritorious revelations? I mean we knew about the Iraqi torture and rape before Bush ever declared war on them, didn't we? One thing you seem to be glossing over is that Manning wanted out of the military anyway. He was upset about being shipped to Iraq and it is reasonable to posit that his leak was much more self-serving than heroic.