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Might get down-voted, but I don't think Chelsea Manning is a hero. Do I think she is an evil traitor? Also no, but I don't understand the worship of some of th

Might get down-voted, but I don't think Chelsea Manning is a hero. Do I think she is an evil traitor? Also no, but I don't understand the worship of some of these very morally grey personalities.

AaronFriel 9y ago
I think that she did something very brave, but also very stupid. As I recall, WikiLeaks did the right thing then and proved themselves to be reliable, trustworthy actors in releasing details that were important for the public to know. Recent events have changed my opinion of WikiLeaks, but not of Manning, who took an enormous risk to reveal crimes committed by the military.
- tripplethrendo 9y ago
  Yeah most people are only happy with Wikileaks when they're going after Republicans. They can't stand the same heat when they go after Democrats. I have always been, and will remain, a fan of the truth being exposed.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    You mean the "truth" about Seth Rich that Assange's organization has been spreading.
    - Helloworldboy 9y ago
      I wouldn't claim to know the truth about that situation unless you're involved in the investigation.
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        And I suppose you wouldn't claim to know the truth about chemtrails and Bigfoot either? The Washington PD has already ruled it a botched robbery.
  - AaronFriel 9y ago
    It's my personal belief that WikiLeaks is, perhaps has been for some time, a tool of a foreign state actor to threaten political candidates and push conspiracy theories (see: Seth Rich, Pizzagate.) That crosses a line for me, and the amount of "moral good" they do is significantly diminished when, instead of working with leaks that help align politician's actions with their speeches, seek to undermine democratic norms by dealing in crass and unfounded conspiracies.
  - krisdol 9y ago
    I'd venture a guess that many people who don't like wikileaks now didn't feel that way when wikileaks was exposing the democratic president. Many likely thought and continue to think of Snowden as a hero. I find wikileaks sensationalist in a way that mirrors the sensationalism of grocery store checkout-aisle tabloids. Promoting conspiracy theories about satanic rituals, pizzagate, the seth rich lies, and clinton-organized child kidnappings is not in any way exposing something resembling truth. They promoted conspiracy theories criticizing that the Panama Papers release was a George Soros-funded conspiracy to target Russia and the former USSR. None of these claims had evidence attached to them. Leaks of truth are valuable, but I have lost all faith that wikileaks publishes in a non-partisan "truth for truth's sake" mission, rather, I think they have specific targets in mind and publish whatever it takes to harm those targets and help others.
  - Overtonwindow 9y ago
    But I think therein lies a horrible truth: Manning, her crime, her release, and everything that flows from that, has been turned into a purely political issue. What might have happened had it never entered the political arena? Perhaps a shorter sentence, confinement to a hospital instead of a prison, better care for her psychosis, an assortment of things could have been better. Her commutation was the single, greatest act of political f* you to America. Not even the pardoning of Nixon, or the failures of every single President since comes close to this level of politicization.
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  Manning leaked out private diplomacy between the US and other countries, damaging the standing of the United States and contributing to the destabilization of those regimes. Manning's leaks are widely thought to have contributed to, or even triggered, the Arab Spring which has not only been a disaster for American interests, but a disaster for almost everyone in the Middle East except the jihadists.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - neo4sure 9y ago
    Wikileaks has become an arm of the Russian government. Any Russian dirt spilled lately???
    - marcoperaza 9y ago
      I said nothing about Wikileaks.
- linkregister 9y ago
  I disagree that Wikileaks was acting consistently with its core value of radical transparency for governments. They heavily edited the "Collateral Murder" video to make it appear to be murder in the first degree. The entirety of the video shows it to be negligent homocide. Wikileaks is well-known for omitting information about countries with which it is ideologically aligned. Though this is normal and logical, Wikileaks is being disingenuous when it describes its ideals as such. Additionally, Assange groomed Chelsea to give up the information. It wasn't just a case of simple whistleblowing. It was more consistent with an intelligence operation with Chelsea as an asset. Again, there isn't anything inherently wrong with that, it is just inconsistent with the narrative of Wikileaks just being a repository for voluntary leaks.
ohyoutravel 9y ago
Agree with this. I have no problem with her personally, but I do have a problem with the leaking of classified information. And I don't have a problem generally with felons, sometimes one might be charged with a felony for doing something just. This is not one of those times. I don't think someone who did what she did should be invited to be a visiting fellow.
innocentoldguy 9y ago
I'm sure I'll get downvoted as well, but I do not get it either. What thing of merit or heroics did Bradley Manning do, other than gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning, complaining about being deployed to Iraq, and leaking classified military documents? How is any of that heroic? I don't think Manning is a hero or the devil either. I just think he's a guy that did some stuff and made a bad choice for his own personal reasons. Don't we all do that, to one degree or another, with unfortunate frequency?
- foldr 9y ago
  >gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning I largely agree with you, but it's not fair to suggest that the gender change was a publicity stunt.
  - innocentoldguy 9y ago
    I'm not saying it was. I'm simply stating that gender change is one of the few things Manning is known for.
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  "Leaking classified military documents" is a negative (but somewhat legitimate) framing of what transpired. Her complaints and gender issues are just distractions from the important issues; I agree that they're irrelevant. (Similarly, it's unproductive to consider Trump's fashion choices or Obama's distate for mayonnaise when their policy decisions are what actually affect billions of people - but people will always highlight anything that can enhance their own position and detract from their opponents. Ignore the gender issues and complaints, they are meaningless.) The alternative, positive framing is that she sacrificed a secure career to stop endemic corruption, war crimes, and violations of human rights described in the files she had access to. The cables and other files she leaked contained evidence of torture, of collusion, of abuses of power, and other atrocities, and bringing those into the public has hopefully reduced the rate at which those terrible things happen. On an individual level, rather than recognizing that she needed whistleblower protection, the government tortured and imprisoned her. Fortunately, a significant part of her sentence was commuted, but she still spent most of a decade in prison. She has helped to prevent terrible crimes from continuing, and personally suffered for it. That's heroic and meritorious.
sp332 9y ago
That's what makes it strange. Michael Morell, former deputy director of the CIA, resigned loudly from a completely different part of Harvard in protest to the invitation they extended to her. https://twitter.com/Mosheh/status/908367178067574784 https://twitter.com/Mosheh/status/908367178067574784 There's a lot of "morally grey" people around Harvard, so why such a strong reaction to her?
- kevmo 9y ago
  Because she rattled the existing power system at a fundamental level. A lot of established institutions and companies talk a big game, but they aren't serious about effecting real social change. They do little things at the margins, then go on PR campaigns about how they changed the world. I find it kind of bizarre whoever made the decision to award the Fellow title didn't anticipate immediate, massive backlash. Or maybe they did and now Harvard's internal decision-making process about this will change.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  Because of the politicalization of her crimes, and the steadfast resolution of each side of the spectrum as to her guilt or innocence.
RandomInteger4 9y ago
Morally grey? She made it known that US troops were committing war crimes.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
I don't think she's a hero, or a villain really. I believe she did commit treason, and should have been punished far longer than she was. That said, I've met Manning, and I believe she suffers from deep psychological issues, both before her imprisonment, and certainly after. I think she needs help, and should've been confined to a hospital for her sentence, instead of the brig. We should not glorify those who break the law, no matter their justifications. The ends do not justify the means in these circumstances.

Might get down-voted, but I don't think Chelsea Manning is a hero. Do I think she is an evil traitor? Also no, but I don't understand the worship of some of these very morally grey personalities.

AaronFriel 9y ago

I think that she did something very brave, but also very stupid. As I recall, WikiLeaks did the right thing then and proved themselves to be reliable, trustworthy actors in releasing details that were important for the public to know. Recent events have changed my opinion of WikiLeaks, but not of Manning, who took an enormous risk to reveal crimes committed by the military.

tripplethrendo 9y ago
Yeah most people are only happy with Wikileaks when they're going after Republicans. They can't stand the same heat when they go after Democrats. I have always been, and will remain, a fan of the truth being exposed.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  You mean the "truth" about Seth Rich that Assange's organization has been spreading.
  - Helloworldboy 9y ago
    I wouldn't claim to know the truth about that situation unless you're involved in the investigation.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      And I suppose you wouldn't claim to know the truth about chemtrails and Bigfoot either? The Washington PD has already ruled it a botched robbery.
- AaronFriel 9y ago
  It's my personal belief that WikiLeaks is, perhaps has been for some time, a tool of a foreign state actor to threaten political candidates and push conspiracy theories (see: Seth Rich, Pizzagate.) That crosses a line for me, and the amount of "moral good" they do is significantly diminished when, instead of working with leaks that help align politician's actions with their speeches, seek to undermine democratic norms by dealing in crass and unfounded conspiracies.
- krisdol 9y ago
  I'd venture a guess that many people who don't like wikileaks now didn't feel that way when wikileaks was exposing the democratic president. Many likely thought and continue to think of Snowden as a hero. I find wikileaks sensationalist in a way that mirrors the sensationalism of grocery store checkout-aisle tabloids. Promoting conspiracy theories about satanic rituals, pizzagate, the seth rich lies, and clinton-organized child kidnappings is not in any way exposing something resembling truth. They promoted conspiracy theories criticizing that the Panama Papers release was a George Soros-funded conspiracy to target Russia and the former USSR. None of these claims had evidence attached to them. Leaks of truth are valuable, but I have lost all faith that wikileaks publishes in a non-partisan "truth for truth's sake" mission, rather, I think they have specific targets in mind and publish whatever it takes to harm those targets and help others.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  But I think therein lies a horrible truth: Manning, her crime, her release, and everything that flows from that, has been turned into a purely political issue. What might have happened had it never entered the political arena? Perhaps a shorter sentence, confinement to a hospital instead of a prison, better care for her psychosis, an assortment of things could have been better. Her commutation was the single, greatest act of political f* you to America. Not even the pardoning of Nixon, or the failures of every single President since comes close to this level of politicization.
marcoperaza 9y ago
Manning leaked out private diplomacy between the US and other countries, damaging the standing of the United States and contributing to the destabilization of those regimes. Manning's leaks are widely thought to have contributed to, or even triggered, the Arab Spring which has not only been a disaster for American interests, but a disaster for almost everyone in the Middle East except the jihadists.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- neo4sure 9y ago
  Wikileaks has become an arm of the Russian government. Any Russian dirt spilled lately???
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    I said nothing about Wikileaks.
linkregister 9y ago
I disagree that Wikileaks was acting consistently with its core value of radical transparency for governments. They heavily edited the "Collateral Murder" video to make it appear to be murder in the first degree. The entirety of the video shows it to be negligent homocide. Wikileaks is well-known for omitting information about countries with which it is ideologically aligned. Though this is normal and logical, Wikileaks is being disingenuous when it describes its ideals as such. Additionally, Assange groomed Chelsea to give up the information. It wasn't just a case of simple whistleblowing. It was more consistent with an intelligence operation with Chelsea as an asset. Again, there isn't anything inherently wrong with that, it is just inconsistent with the narrative of Wikileaks just being a repository for voluntary leaks.

ohyoutravel 9y ago

Agree with this. I have no problem with her personally, but I do have a problem with the leaking of classified information. And I don't have a problem generally with felons, sometimes one might be charged with a felony for doing something just. This is not one of those times. I don't think someone who did what she did should be invited to be a visiting fellow.

innocentoldguy 9y ago

I'm sure I'll get downvoted as well, but I do not get it either. What thing of merit or heroics did Bradley Manning do, other than gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning, complaining about being deployed to Iraq, and leaking classified military documents? How is any of that heroic? I don't think Manning is a hero or the devil either. I just think he's a guy that did some stuff and made a bad choice for his own personal reasons. Don't we all do that, to one degree or another, with unfortunate frequency?

foldr 9y ago
>gain publicity by becoming Chelsea Manning I largely agree with you, but it's not fair to suggest that the gender change was a publicity stunt.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  I'm not saying it was. I'm simply stating that gender change is one of the few things Manning is known for.
LeifCarrotson 9y ago
"Leaking classified military documents" is a negative (but somewhat legitimate) framing of what transpired. Her complaints and gender issues are just distractions from the important issues; I agree that they're irrelevant. (Similarly, it's unproductive to consider Trump's fashion choices or Obama's distate for mayonnaise when their policy decisions are what actually affect billions of people - but people will always highlight anything that can enhance their own position and detract from their opponents. Ignore the gender issues and complaints, they are meaningless.) The alternative, positive framing is that she sacrificed a secure career to stop endemic corruption, war crimes, and violations of human rights described in the files she had access to. The cables and other files she leaked contained evidence of torture, of collusion, of abuses of power, and other atrocities, and bringing those into the public has hopefully reduced the rate at which those terrible things happen. On an individual level, rather than recognizing that she needed whistleblower protection, the government tortured and imprisoned her. Fortunately, a significant part of her sentence was commuted, but she still spent most of a decade in prison. She has helped to prevent terrible crimes from continuing, and personally suffered for it. That's heroic and meritorious.

sp332 9y ago

That's what makes it strange. Michael Morell, former deputy director of the CIA, resigned loudly from a completely different part of Harvard in protest to the invitation they extended to her. https://twitter.com/Mosheh/status/908367178067574784 https://twitter.com/Mosheh/status/908367178067574784 There's a lot of "morally grey" people around Harvard, so why such a strong reaction to her?

kevmo 9y ago
Because she rattled the existing power system at a fundamental level. A lot of established institutions and companies talk a big game, but they aren't serious about effecting real social change. They do little things at the margins, then go on PR campaigns about how they changed the world. I find it kind of bizarre whoever made the decision to award the Fellow title didn't anticipate immediate, massive backlash. Or maybe they did and now Harvard's internal decision-making process about this will change.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
Because of the politicalization of her crimes, and the steadfast resolution of each side of the spectrum as to her guilt or innocence.

RandomInteger4 9y ago

Morally grey? She made it known that US troops were committing war crimes.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

I don't think she's a hero, or a villain really. I believe she did commit treason, and should have been punished far longer than she was. That said, I've met Manning, and I believe she suffers from deep psychological issues, both before her imprisonment, and certainly after. I think she needs help, and should've been confined to a hospital for her sentence, instead of the brig. We should not glorify those who break the law, no matter their justifications. The ends do not justify the means in these circumstances.