6 ms·

I don't think any serious person is arguing that sexist games are making people sexist who wouldn't be otherwise. Certainly nobody is arguing that sexism is mos

I don't think any serious person is arguing that sexist games are making people sexist who wouldn't be otherwise. Certainly nobody is arguing that sexism is mostly caused by video games. Sexist games are a problem because they are a space in our culture where women are inferior, or are only sex objects, etc. In a similar way, there was a time in America when a white person could safely make derogatory jokes about black people to his white friends with little risk of social blowback. Thankfully, anti-racism eventually took that cultural space away. It's not that those conversations were directly doing black people harm, but rather they were part and parcel of a culture in which it was okay to do black people harm in general, a culture that is hopefully being further eroded. Similarly, I would expect to see the amount of sexist games reduced over time because I hope we are eroding the culture in which it is acceptable to see and treat women the way they are portrayed in these games. That's why speaking out against sexism in games is important--because it is part of the project to make sexist attitudes in general unacceptable in our society, something I hope we all agree is desirable and necessary.

zaroth 9y ago
Is it wrong to have female characters in games which are e.g. damsels in distress, vapid, submissive, or simply eye candy in the same way that the game "Ethnic Cleansing" by Resistance Records is wrong? Frankly most game characters - male or female - seem to fall into blatant gendered stereotypes. I think "sexism" is assumed to only be in regards to stereotypes about women though.
- arglebarnacle 9y ago
  For what it's worth, I think games which portray men as unemotional automatons who are only capable of the grunt work, or portray men as mostly machismo-fueled bro types who constantly degrade women, also reflect sexist attitudes. Sexism stifles and limits men and encourages men to be toxic--as a result it harms men, and these portrayals are a part of that.
  - adekok 9y ago
    > Sexism stifles and limits men and encourages men to be toxic- It's weird... sexism against women hurts women. Sexism against men makes men hurt others. (i.e. be toxic) It's almost like the normal use of sexism is, itself, sexist.
    - SerLava 9y ago
      It surely is. People actually have trouble framing anything as sexist against men. All the men in a hostage holdup can get shot, and someone will talk about how it's sexist against women. When no woman is involved at all, it's often called homophobia. But the hint there is that if no LGBT person or LGBT attribute is involved in any way, it's not homophobia either. It's just sexism. Against men.
    - foldr 9y ago
      Of course it is, because women have historically been oppressed by men and not vice versa.
      - adekok 9y ago
        That just isn't true. There is zero reason to believe that men as a class have oppressed women as a class. Your ideology is just rebranded communism. Which is itself a lie.
        foldr 9y ago
        I didn't say anything about classes, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. There is, obviously, a long history of men oppressing women. Men used to own their wives and have the legal right to beat and rape them. Not every claim about one group having done something to another group rests on some kind of Marxist ideology. There are any number of uncontroversial historical statements along the lines "group X did Y to group Z" which would be assented to by people of all ideological stripes.
        9y ago
etse 9y ago
Sexist games don't affect people's sex/gender attitudes? Then what does? > Thankfully, anti-racism eventually took that cultural space away. I can appreciate the hope that the culture is changing, but the "there was a time in America" statement seems unlikely to be true. Maybe America is too broad a country to make that generalization. Okay, playing the devil's advocate, speaking out against sexism important, but what does that accomplish? A sound bite in the news media? Trending social media posts/comments? And let's say that it does have an impact. Why would speaking out have an impact on sexist attitudes and video games not have an impact?
- scotty79 9y ago
  > Sexist games don't affect people's sex/gender attitudes? Then what does? People you grow up with. Parents mostly, later peers. Basically people that could have opinion on you that you care about. You tend to share their values eventually.
adekok 9y ago
> Certainly nobody is arguing that sexism is mostly caused by video games. "Mostly?" no. Substantially? Yes. See various popular video series... > Sexist games are a problem because they are a space in our culture where women are inferior, or are only sex objects, etc. i.e. Sexist means "sexist towards women". Because when the average male character is either muscle-bound or a world-class sniper... that isn't sexist. Or this nonsense: http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/okay-to-objectify-men/1106317/ http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/okay-to-objectify-men/110... Objectifying women is bad. OK... sure. Objectifying men? Woo! Let's do it! > I hope we are eroding the culture in which it is acceptable to see and treat women the way they are portrayed in these games. Here's a question: what happens to the average male in a video game or movie? Answer: killed by the dozens, if not by the thousands. Even kids movies aren't immune. The average movie has henchmen getting killed or injured by the dozens. But if one woman is objectified, that's a crisis. So yes, I'm somewhat cynical about this whole process.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dragontamer 9y ago
What exactly is a "sexist game" ?? Is it one where female characters are portrayed sexually? Because the "reverse" exists: http://store.steampowered.com/app/654880/Dream_Daddy_A_Dad_Dating_Simulator/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/654880/Dream_Daddy_A_Dad_D... And considering how many female players kinda like games like Final Fantasy X (where Tidus was a somewhat cute male main character), or Zelda (Link is also cute), I think that "bringing sexy boys" into games would make the overall game industry better in general. In essence: there's nothing wrong with "the male gaze", as long as there's an equivalent amount of "female gaze" going on. We're not at that point yet, but there's definitely more and more games being developed with a "sexy boy" with the female player in mind. Much as Laura Croft is primarily played by male players who find her sexy. Or a more modern example would probably be Nier: Automata's 2B. Its a game more or less designed for the male audience with a sexy female lead. As long as there's enough studs like Nathan Drake (Uncharted) for female players to also gaze upon, I don't think there's anything wrong with sexy. For a "mainstream" example... the Bikini Armor of "Xena: Warrior Princess" is contrasted against the perfect abs and pecs of "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" and "Beastmaster". As long as things are fair for both genders to enjoy, I don't think its a bad thing. ---------- Similarly, "Damsel in Distress" isn't innately a sexist trope if there are enough "Dudesels in Distress" to compensate. That "Super Princess Peach" video game where Bowser steals Mario and then Princess Peach rescues Mario is a good example of this inversion. I agree that most "people in rescue" today still are female, so its a female trope in general. But there's really no reason it has to be locked to the female role. -------------- Its hard for me to fully understand what's wrong and whats right, especially when I start talking to female gamers and learn which games they play. I mean hell, I've met female gamers who actually play the crap out of "obviously sexist" games like Senran Kagura. So what is and isn't "sexist" is a very confusing subject to me. Mostly because even feminists don't agree on what is and isn't "sexist". First Generation Feminists would argue that "sexy" representations of women is sexist for example. But a 3rd Wave Feminist would argue that sex-negativity is sexist, and that positive portrayal of sex is better for the feminist cause. ---------------- I think Nintendo managed to hit a good spot with their new female characters this generation. The Squid-Boy and Squid-girls have universally been accepted as positive character portrayals. Pokemon's "Male" protagonist and "Female" protagonists is quite inclusive, even if its quite simple. And while the male "Red" is undoubtedly the strongest NPC of the in-game universe, strong female characters like "Cynthia" are remembered by the fanbase. And finally, the "ARMs" characters have some degree of sexiness built in but nothing as outrageous as say, DoA. And as far as I can tell, "ARMs" is getting a positive reception overall. But maybe these games are just too new, so there isn't much analysis on them yet.

zaroth 9y ago

Is it wrong to have female characters in games which are e.g. damsels in distress, vapid, submissive, or simply eye candy in the same way that the game "Ethnic Cleansing" by Resistance Records is wrong? Frankly most game characters - male or female - seem to fall into blatant gendered stereotypes. I think "sexism" is assumed to only be in regards to stereotypes about women though.

arglebarnacle 9y ago
For what it's worth, I think games which portray men as unemotional automatons who are only capable of the grunt work, or portray men as mostly machismo-fueled bro types who constantly degrade women, also reflect sexist attitudes. Sexism stifles and limits men and encourages men to be toxic--as a result it harms men, and these portrayals are a part of that.
- adekok 9y ago
  > Sexism stifles and limits men and encourages men to be toxic- It's weird... sexism against women hurts women. Sexism against men makes men hurt others. (i.e. be toxic) It's almost like the normal use of sexism is, itself, sexist.
  - SerLava 9y ago
    It surely is. People actually have trouble framing anything as sexist against men. All the men in a hostage holdup can get shot, and someone will talk about how it's sexist against women. When no woman is involved at all, it's often called homophobia. But the hint there is that if no LGBT person or LGBT attribute is involved in any way, it's not homophobia either. It's just sexism. Against men.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Of course it is, because women have historically been oppressed by men and not vice versa.
    - adekok 9y ago
      That just isn't true. There is zero reason to believe that men as a class have oppressed women as a class. Your ideology is just rebranded communism. Which is itself a lie.
      - foldr 9y ago
        I didn't say anything about classes, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. There is, obviously, a long history of men oppressing women. Men used to own their wives and have the legal right to beat and rape them. Not every claim about one group having done something to another group rests on some kind of Marxist ideology. There are any number of uncontroversial historical statements along the lines "group X did Y to group Z" which would be assented to by people of all ideological stripes.
        9y ago

etse 9y ago

Sexist games don't affect people's sex/gender attitudes? Then what does? > Thankfully, anti-racism eventually took that cultural space away. I can appreciate the hope that the culture is changing, but the "there was a time in America" statement seems unlikely to be true. Maybe America is too broad a country to make that generalization. Okay, playing the devil's advocate, speaking out against sexism important, but what does that accomplish? A sound bite in the news media? Trending social media posts/comments? And let's say that it does have an impact. Why would speaking out have an impact on sexist attitudes and video games not have an impact?

scotty79 9y ago
> Sexist games don't affect people's sex/gender attitudes? Then what does? People you grow up with. Parents mostly, later peers. Basically people that could have opinion on you that you care about. You tend to share their values eventually.

adekok 9y ago

> Certainly nobody is arguing that sexism is mostly caused by video games. "Mostly?" no. Substantially? Yes. See various popular video series... > Sexist games are a problem because they are a space in our culture where women are inferior, or are only sex objects, etc. i.e. Sexist means "sexist towards women". Because when the average male character is either muscle-bound or a world-class sniper... that isn't sexist. Or this nonsense: http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/okay-to-objectify-men/1106317/ http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/okay-to-objectify-men/110... Objectifying women is bad. OK... sure. Objectifying men? Woo! Let's do it! > I hope we are eroding the culture in which it is acceptable to see and treat women the way they are portrayed in these games. Here's a question: what happens to the average male in a video game or movie? Answer: killed by the dozens, if not by the thousands. Even kids movies aren't immune. The average movie has henchmen getting killed or injured by the dozens. But if one woman is objectified, that's a crisis. So yes, I'm somewhat cynical about this whole process.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

dragontamer 9y ago

What exactly is a "sexist game" ?? Is it one where female characters are portrayed sexually? Because the "reverse" exists: http://store.steampowered.com/app/654880/Dream_Daddy_A_Dad_Dating_Simulator/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/654880/Dream_Daddy_A_Dad_D... And considering how many female players kinda like games like Final Fantasy X (where Tidus was a somewhat cute male main character), or Zelda (Link is also cute), I think that "bringing sexy boys" into games would make the overall game industry better in general. In essence: there's nothing wrong with "the male gaze", as long as there's an equivalent amount of "female gaze" going on. We're not at that point yet, but there's definitely more and more games being developed with a "sexy boy" with the female player in mind. Much as Laura Croft is primarily played by male players who find her sexy. Or a more modern example would probably be Nier: Automata's 2B. Its a game more or less designed for the male audience with a sexy female lead. As long as there's enough studs like Nathan Drake (Uncharted) for female players to also gaze upon, I don't think there's anything wrong with sexy. For a "mainstream" example... the Bikini Armor of "Xena: Warrior Princess" is contrasted against the perfect abs and pecs of "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" and "Beastmaster". As long as things are fair for both genders to enjoy, I don't think its a bad thing. ---------- Similarly, "Damsel in Distress" isn't innately a sexist trope if there are enough "Dudesels in Distress" to compensate. That "Super Princess Peach" video game where Bowser steals Mario and then Princess Peach rescues Mario is a good example of this inversion. I agree that most "people in rescue" today still are female, so its a female trope in general. But there's really no reason it has to be locked to the female role. -------------- Its hard for me to fully understand what's wrong and whats right, especially when I start talking to female gamers and learn which games they play. I mean hell, I've met female gamers who actually play the crap out of "obviously sexist" games like Senran Kagura. So what is and isn't "sexist" is a very confusing subject to me. Mostly because even feminists don't agree on what is and isn't "sexist". First Generation Feminists would argue that "sexy" representations of women is sexist for example. But a 3rd Wave Feminist would argue that sex-negativity is sexist, and that positive portrayal of sex is better for the feminist cause. ---------------- I think Nintendo managed to hit a good spot with their new female characters this generation. The Squid-Boy and Squid-girls have universally been accepted as positive character portrayals. Pokemon's "Male" protagonist and "Female" protagonists is quite inclusive, even if its quite simple. And while the male "Red" is undoubtedly the strongest NPC of the in-game universe, strong female characters like "Cynthia" are remembered by the fanbase. And finally, the "ARMs" characters have some degree of sexiness built in but nothing as outrageous as say, DoA. And as far as I can tell, "ARMs" is getting a positive reception overall. But maybe these games are just too new, so there isn't much analysis on them yet.