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I especially liked the shot they took at the kids about being "negotiators," as though the ability to compromise rationally with authority figures is some sort

I especially liked the shot they took at the kids about being "negotiators," as though the ability to compromise rationally with authority figures is some sort of behavioral issue and not, you know, life. When I wanted toys, I did chores. Later when I wanted spending money, I did chores, helped out around the house, mowed lawns, and eventually got a job. That is not negotiating, that's just being a productive member of a society. Seems like this company is specializing in creating the same authority-fearing, tough-as-nails people who are being put out of work in the coal mines and have an uphill battle learning to do creative and intellectual work because they had all of their brains beat out of them by an education and parenting system designed to create drones, not problem solvers. Fucking tragic.

Danihan 9y ago
I was thinking the same thing, "Oh no! My child is learning how to negotiate instead of blindly following authority, the horror!" What's even sadder to me though, is that blindly following authority does work extremely well for following academic paths, and probably most corporate paths. While negotiating and actual critical thinking (questioning authority) will only get you into trouble / derailed. So this program does work to help these kids academically. Because academic success is almost entirely based on submission to authority and doing structured tasks without questioning much.
- clort 9y ago
  I think you have extrapolated too much about this, they were being overly polite I think when they called it negotiation. When you are being issued a traffic ticket for parking in a way that is clearly indicated as wrong then you don't "negotiate" with the traffic warden; it is not their call and in fact you are just bitching at them and causing a scene. That traffic warden works for all of us to manage parking and traffic flow and is doing their job as directed. If you don't believe that the rule you have broken is correct then you should challenge the rule, in a forum where the rule was created (the city council, the local media, or whatever) or if you don't think you have broken it then challenge the penalty in court please and let the traffic warden get on with their job. What this article is saying, is that this argumentative behaviour is undesirable. There was a lot they didn't mention, such as what a "strike" was, or whether there was any opportunity to have discussions about the rules which were broken. This kind of behaviour modification will not work unless there is though, and I understand that that should be in a separate context, away from the situation which caused the strike to be issued.
  - slededit 9y ago
    You can negotiate politely in that scenario and the warden does have discretion. I have gotten out of tickets that way when there were mitigating circumstances, but I was clear to say that I understood if they still had to give me a ticket. People yelling at traffic cops aren't really negotiating, they are just releasing anger.
munificent 9y ago
> I especially liked the shot they took at the kids about being > "negotiators," as though the ability to compromise rationally with > authority figures is some sort of behavioral issue and not, you know, > life. One of my kids is a born haggler. She will try to maximize her personal benefit in every interaction with every human, even at that human's expense. Conversations with her like this are typical: Her: Can I have some tablet time before bed? Me: It's getting late, but fine. I have stuff I need to get done after you go to bed. Five minutes. <Five minutes later.> Me: Alright, it's bedtime. Her: Five more minutes? Me: No, now. Her: That's not fair! Me: You agreed to five minutes. That was five minutes ago. <She gets off tablet.> Her: I want some time to read now. Adversarial negotiation is one way that humans interact, but it's not a particularly common one, and is rarely the best way to work together with someone else. Most interactions in life not zero-sum, and most people should not be treated like resources to maximize your exploitation of. Only in some sort of Randian libertarian hellhole would an interaction like this be acceptable: Husband: Could you please pass the butter, dear? Wife: Sure thing honey. That'll be $0.57 for the butter and $0.13 for the labor. With a kid like mine that naturally goes into zero-sum mode, it is very important for me and my wife to train her to not treat people like that. Part of that is encouraging her to use empathy, but also a big part of it is knowing when to recognize when negotiation is not appropriate. Interacting with an authority is a bad time to start haggling, and authority figures are a part of life. If you get pulled over for a ticket, things usually don't go well if you tell the cop, "No, $200 is too much for the fine. I'll accept $50."

Danihan 9y ago

I was thinking the same thing, "Oh no! My child is learning how to negotiate instead of blindly following authority, the horror!" What's even sadder to me though, is that blindly following authority does work extremely well for following academic paths, and probably most corporate paths. While negotiating and actual critical thinking (questioning authority) will only get you into trouble / derailed. So this program does work to help these kids academically. Because academic success is almost entirely based on submission to authority and doing structured tasks without questioning much.

clort 9y ago
I think you have extrapolated too much about this, they were being overly polite I think when they called it negotiation. When you are being issued a traffic ticket for parking in a way that is clearly indicated as wrong then you don't "negotiate" with the traffic warden; it is not their call and in fact you are just bitching at them and causing a scene. That traffic warden works for all of us to manage parking and traffic flow and is doing their job as directed. If you don't believe that the rule you have broken is correct then you should challenge the rule, in a forum where the rule was created (the city council, the local media, or whatever) or if you don't think you have broken it then challenge the penalty in court please and let the traffic warden get on with their job. What this article is saying, is that this argumentative behaviour is undesirable. There was a lot they didn't mention, such as what a "strike" was, or whether there was any opportunity to have discussions about the rules which were broken. This kind of behaviour modification will not work unless there is though, and I understand that that should be in a separate context, away from the situation which caused the strike to be issued.
- slededit 9y ago
  You can negotiate politely in that scenario and the warden does have discretion. I have gotten out of tickets that way when there were mitigating circumstances, but I was clear to say that I understood if they still had to give me a ticket. People yelling at traffic cops aren't really negotiating, they are just releasing anger.

munificent 9y ago

> I especially liked the shot they took at the kids about being > "negotiators," as though the ability to compromise rationally with > authority figures is some sort of behavioral issue and not, you know, > life. One of my kids is a born haggler. She will try to maximize her personal benefit in every interaction with every human, even at that human's expense. Conversations with her like this are typical: Her: Can I have some tablet time before bed? Me: It's getting late, but fine. I have stuff I need to get done after you go to bed. Five minutes. <Five minutes later.> Me: Alright, it's bedtime. Her: Five more minutes? Me: No, now. Her: That's not fair! Me: You agreed to five minutes. That was five minutes ago. <She gets off tablet.> Her: I want some time to read now. Adversarial negotiation is one way that humans interact, but it's not a particularly common one, and is rarely the best way to work together with someone else. Most interactions in life not zero-sum, and most people should not be treated like resources to maximize your exploitation of. Only in some sort of Randian libertarian hellhole would an interaction like this be acceptable: Husband: Could you please pass the butter, dear? Wife: Sure thing honey. That'll be $0.57 for the butter and $0.13 for the labor. With a kid like mine that naturally goes into zero-sum mode, it is very important for me and my wife to train her to not treat people like that. Part of that is encouraging her to use empathy, but also a big part of it is knowing when to recognize when negotiation is not appropriate. Interacting with an authority is a bad time to start haggling, and authority figures are a part of life. If you get pulled over for a ticket, things usually don't go well if you tell the cop, "No, $200 is too much for the fine. I'll accept $50."