6 ms·

Frankly, there are a lot of worse ways to spend your time than memorizing some lines of Shakespeare. Of course, one would prefer to have one's choice and not ge

Frankly, there are a lot of worse ways to spend your time than memorizing some lines of Shakespeare. Of course, one would prefer to have one's choice and not get stuck with a real dog of a passage.

GiraffeNecktie 16y ago
I wish I could upvote you higher. The ability to commit complex information to memory is an immensely valuable building block for creativity. It's sad when education is only memorization and it's equally sad when education neglects memorization.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  I fail to see how lines from Shakespeare are 'complex [pieces of] information'. They're just words arranged in a particular order. When memorization happens out of convenience that's a great thing. I have no problem asking students to memorize the derivatives of transcendental functions after they have derived them. It's good to memorize things that appear frequently in the line of work. For what purpose does memorizing Shakespeare serve?
  - pstuart 16y ago
    They're just words arranged in a particular order That ordering of words might actually convey some insights into life, love, and other such follies. Maybe in the act of memorizing it this may come through.
    - tkahn6 16y ago
      That ordering of words might actually convey some insights into life, love, and other such follies. Definitely. Hamlet has some amazing passages that are beautiful and thought-provoking. Maybe in the act of memorizing it this may come through. In my experience, understanding the text and memorizing it are entirely orthogonal endeavors.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
  - shadowfox 16y ago
    > They're just words arranged in a particular order Hmm. That can be said of any piece of text
    - tkahn6 16y ago
      Correct. I was talking about it in terms of information. I can memorize the particular order of the symbols in Schrödinger's Wave Equation and still not understand what it means.
  - ant5 16y ago
    For what purpose does memorizing Shakespeare serve? Shakespeare is clever, bawdy, and often amusing, and you have to be even more clever to understand it. A lot his wordplay is based on idioms no longer in active use. Take, for example, Act 1, Scene 1 (http://www.shakespeare-literature.com/Romeo_and_Juliet/2.html http://www.shakespeare-literature.com/Romeo_and_Juliet/2.htm...) SAMPSON 'Tis all one, I will show myself a tyrant: when I have fought with the men, I will be cruel with the maids, and cut off their heads. GREGORY The heads of the maids? SAMPSON Ay, the heads of the maids, or their maidenheads; take it in what sense thou wilt. 'Maidenheads' as a colloquial term for a woman's virginity (or more crudely, her hymen). Or Act 1, Scene 3 NURSE And since that time it is eleven years; For then she could stand alone; nay, by the rood, She could have run and waddled all about; For even the day before, she broke her brow: And then my husband--God be with his soul! A' was a merry man--took up the child: 'Yea,' quoth he, 'dost thou fall upon thy face? Thou wilt fall backward when thou hast more wit; Wilt thou not, Jule?' and, by my holidame, The pretty wretch left crying and said 'Ay.' To see, now, how a jest shall come about! I warrant, an I should live a thousand years, I never should forget it: 'Wilt thou not, Jule?' quoth he; And, pretty fool, it stinted and said 'Ay.' The nurse is speaking of her husband and Juliet. As a small child, she 'waddled all about', fell on her face and 'broke her bow'. The husband asks, amused -- when you have more wit, will you not fall on your back? The young Juliet clearly innocently replies 'Ay', likely sending everyone tittering -- to fall on her back when she has more wit is an oblique reference to her having sex (on her back) when she's older (has more wit). It's crude, inappropriate, and -- at least to me -- pretty damn funny, in the story's context. It also has a hell of a lot to do with "words arranged in a particular order", and the nuances of the meanings of words. Memorizing it forces you to study the text more deeply than you likely have before. I've never made use of Shakespeare as a programmer, but I still remember reading his works in school -- and the significant appreciation I had for the art and cleverness of it. I even memorized the entire Queen Mab Speech for extra credit (I'm glad I didn't refuse!). It did help that I went to a private school where the teacher was intelligent enough to explain the word-play to us, and didn't avoid the less appropriate aspects of it.
    - tkahn6 16y ago
      I've found that process of deciphering Shakespeare is as exhilarating as attempting to comprehend a new topic in mathematics. It feels like I'm using the same parts of my brain. I do really enjoy reading and understanding Shakespeare. Memorizing Shakespeare, though, has nothing to do with this process. Of course one needs a working memory of the text to put it all in context, but rote memorization of a passage is orthogonal to understanding it.
tkahn6 16y ago
I'm surprised you have any upvotes. You haven't actually made a substantial claim. All you've said is that memorizing Shakespeare is not the worst use of one's time. I don't know how anyone could disagree with such a statement when obviously memorizing Shakespeare is better use of one's time than say, joining a gang or watching paint dry.
- alec 16y ago
  I think it's a good use of time, especially in an English class, because the beauty of Shakespeare never really came out for me until I read it word by word and knew enough to perform a bit of it. It wasn't created to be read, it was created to be performed, and I didn't pick up on all the nuances, humor, and craft that make it really good until I freed myself from reading it from paper. I'm likely a better writer because I've been forced to read poetry and plays in that way. I expect that he didn't substantiate his claim for the same reason the original poster didn't substantiate his claim that learning C is a good use of time - people around here who have done both likely appreciate the value of the task. Meta-point: I think a lot of people around here who argue "school is worthless, why am I doing this useless task" will point to this sort of exercise without asking or understanding why it's done. I certainly felt the same way when I was memorizing Shakespeare. While it's important to think for yourself, it's also important to take the advice of those who have more experience than you do, and when I see these threads I think many of the commentators haven't learned both lessons.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    I agree with everything you've said. I think you would understand my position better if I clarified that it was memorization of the lines I was being graded on not the understanding of what the lines meant. That is the issue I took with the assignment. Learning C is an objectively better use of ones time than memorizing X because learning C requires that you think whereas memorizing X requires that you simply spend time committing the order of symbols to memory.

Frankly, there are a lot of worse ways to spend your time than memorizing some lines of Shakespeare. Of course, one would prefer to have one's choice and not get stuck with a real dog of a passage.

GiraffeNecktie 16y ago

I wish I could upvote you higher. The ability to commit complex information to memory is an immensely valuable building block for creativity. It's sad when education is only memorization and it's equally sad when education neglects memorization.

tkahn6 16y ago
I fail to see how lines from Shakespeare are 'complex [pieces of] information'. They're just words arranged in a particular order. When memorization happens out of convenience that's a great thing. I have no problem asking students to memorize the derivatives of transcendental functions after they have derived them. It's good to memorize things that appear frequently in the line of work. For what purpose does memorizing Shakespeare serve?
- pstuart 16y ago
  They're just words arranged in a particular order That ordering of words might actually convey some insights into life, love, and other such follies. Maybe in the act of memorizing it this may come through.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    That ordering of words might actually convey some insights into life, love, and other such follies. Definitely. Hamlet has some amazing passages that are beautiful and thought-provoking. Maybe in the act of memorizing it this may come through. In my experience, understanding the text and memorizing it are entirely orthogonal endeavors.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- shadowfox 16y ago
  > They're just words arranged in a particular order Hmm. That can be said of any piece of text
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    Correct. I was talking about it in terms of information. I can memorize the particular order of the symbols in Schrödinger's Wave Equation and still not understand what it means.
- ant5 16y ago
  For what purpose does memorizing Shakespeare serve? Shakespeare is clever, bawdy, and often amusing, and you have to be even more clever to understand it. A lot his wordplay is based on idioms no longer in active use. Take, for example, Act 1, Scene 1 (http://www.shakespeare-literature.com/Romeo_and_Juliet/2.html http://www.shakespeare-literature.com/Romeo_and_Juliet/2.htm...) SAMPSON 'Tis all one, I will show myself a tyrant: when I have fought with the men, I will be cruel with the maids, and cut off their heads. GREGORY The heads of the maids? SAMPSON Ay, the heads of the maids, or their maidenheads; take it in what sense thou wilt. 'Maidenheads' as a colloquial term for a woman's virginity (or more crudely, her hymen). Or Act 1, Scene 3 NURSE And since that time it is eleven years; For then she could stand alone; nay, by the rood, She could have run and waddled all about; For even the day before, she broke her brow: And then my husband--God be with his soul! A' was a merry man--took up the child: 'Yea,' quoth he, 'dost thou fall upon thy face? Thou wilt fall backward when thou hast more wit; Wilt thou not, Jule?' and, by my holidame, The pretty wretch left crying and said 'Ay.' To see, now, how a jest shall come about! I warrant, an I should live a thousand years, I never should forget it: 'Wilt thou not, Jule?' quoth he; And, pretty fool, it stinted and said 'Ay.' The nurse is speaking of her husband and Juliet. As a small child, she 'waddled all about', fell on her face and 'broke her bow'. The husband asks, amused -- when you have more wit, will you not fall on your back? The young Juliet clearly innocently replies 'Ay', likely sending everyone tittering -- to fall on her back when she has more wit is an oblique reference to her having sex (on her back) when she's older (has more wit). It's crude, inappropriate, and -- at least to me -- pretty damn funny, in the story's context. It also has a hell of a lot to do with "words arranged in a particular order", and the nuances of the meanings of words. Memorizing it forces you to study the text more deeply than you likely have before. I've never made use of Shakespeare as a programmer, but I still remember reading his works in school -- and the significant appreciation I had for the art and cleverness of it. I even memorized the entire Queen Mab Speech for extra credit (I'm glad I didn't refuse!). It did help that I went to a private school where the teacher was intelligent enough to explain the word-play to us, and didn't avoid the less appropriate aspects of it.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    I've found that process of deciphering Shakespeare is as exhilarating as attempting to comprehend a new topic in mathematics. It feels like I'm using the same parts of my brain. I do really enjoy reading and understanding Shakespeare. Memorizing Shakespeare, though, has nothing to do with this process. Of course one needs a working memory of the text to put it all in context, but rote memorization of a passage is orthogonal to understanding it.

tkahn6 16y ago

I'm surprised you have any upvotes. You haven't actually made a substantial claim. All you've said is that memorizing Shakespeare is not the worst use of one's time. I don't know how anyone could disagree with such a statement when obviously memorizing Shakespeare is better use of one's time than say, joining a gang or watching paint dry.

alec 16y ago
I think it's a good use of time, especially in an English class, because the beauty of Shakespeare never really came out for me until I read it word by word and knew enough to perform a bit of it. It wasn't created to be read, it was created to be performed, and I didn't pick up on all the nuances, humor, and craft that make it really good until I freed myself from reading it from paper. I'm likely a better writer because I've been forced to read poetry and plays in that way. I expect that he didn't substantiate his claim for the same reason the original poster didn't substantiate his claim that learning C is a good use of time - people around here who have done both likely appreciate the value of the task. Meta-point: I think a lot of people around here who argue "school is worthless, why am I doing this useless task" will point to this sort of exercise without asking or understanding why it's done. I certainly felt the same way when I was memorizing Shakespeare. While it's important to think for yourself, it's also important to take the advice of those who have more experience than you do, and when I see these threads I think many of the commentators haven't learned both lessons.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  I agree with everything you've said. I think you would understand my position better if I clarified that it was memorization of the lines I was being graded on not the understanding of what the lines meant. That is the issue I took with the assignment. Learning C is an objectively better use of ones time than memorizing X because learning C requires that you think whereas memorizing X requires that you simply spend time committing the order of symbols to memory.