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> and notices their data is gone. This is real harm. That's only slightly better than losing the phone itself. > Now they start using the device, and they are

> and notices their data is gone. This is real harm. That's only slightly better than losing the phone itself. > Now they start using the device, and they are spied on, on an ongoing basis. This is more harm. This is more substantial. But if you are talking of the naive user who would not take notice of their Apple account suddenly vanishing from their device, there are easier ways for breaking in to their device without having to wipe it. Apple's system doesn't work to secure naive users against dedicated attackers. If Apple's system has any design for security (and I agree it does), it's for users who'd notice when their data is wiped.

natch 9y ago
Your comment is a mixed bag. Have you owned an iPhone lately? It does work in a lot of ways. When you say it doesn't work against dedicated attackers, maybe you are thinking of an iPhone 6 hacked by an Israeli security company paid by the FBI? For one thing, most people don't have the resources of the FBI. And I think Apple has raised the bar significantly in the three or more generations since that device. If you were to own an iPhone and also apply some conscious awareness to noticing what it does on your behalf to protect your security, I think you would agree it has a lot of very effective measures to protect users.
- pritambaral 9y ago
  No,I'm talking about dedicated attackers of any level against naive, unsuspecting users, as you brought up. The FBI case was against a user who knew the FBI was after their data, thus not unsuspecting. Social engineering, for one, is much easier against naive unsuspecting users than wiping their phone and hoping they wouldn't bother. For those who truly care about their own data security though, a wiped phone is an instant siren. ---- I have used an iPhone, though only for a short while, and not long enough to get used to it. I agree it goes a great, great distance to protect users against everyone not blessed by Apple. But then I have greater data security on my laptop and far greater freedom too, so Apple's offering doesn't seem like a good enough deal to me.
  - natch 9y ago
    With mobile there are some constraints that are not a factor on a laptop. For example you don't have a full sized hardware keyboard. Which seems obvious, yet you are expecting a better deal than what you perceive Apple is offering. And you are making the unfair comparison to a laptop. Also with a laptop the use cases generally can tolerate a bit more delay in the login process, with a few seconds being tolerable, whereas with mobile devices a login process over a second starts to get intolerable very quickly as the length of the process increases. Again this may be obvious and yet you seem oblivious to it as a consideration, as you expect a better offer, as though there are no constraints and tradeoffs, or you are unaware of them. Mobile device designers and mobile system designers deal with this stuff every day for years on end. They know a lot about it, and have thought stuff through way more than some of us. It's super easy for you to criticize from a position of relative ignorance (not even a current iOS user...) but I'm pretty sure they are still following the mantra of trying to make stuff insanely great. Still, you can dream of even better devices. I'm sure the bar will keep being raised. Let's hope we get there to a place where we do have both freedom and security.
    - pritambaral 9y ago
      I'm aware of the constraints being different on a mobile vs. a laptop. But that is no reason to pivot your arguments from "But Apple gives you so much security it's okay for you to give up freedom" to "But it's a mobile; Apple can't give you that much security; you'll just have to deal with it". > Again this may be obvious and yet you seem oblivious to it as a consideration, as you expect a better offer, as though there are no constraints and tradeoffs, or you are unaware of them. I'm not oblivious to the tradeoffs of security. I know that if I set a long password it only makes every login that much more tedious. And that's my problem to deal with. But to have no choice, no freedom, no chance of owing your device, in the name of "security", is either unmindful or wilfully ignorant of a manufacturer. ---- You keep saying I'm not a current iOS user so I couldn't possibly see the great things iOS does. I merely doubt it could do anything beyond generally security focused OSes. For example, my current mobile OS has a separate decryption password at boot, scrambles the lock screen numeric layout, compartmentalizes my data, hooks into every way apps can request private data and lets me allow/disallow/fake it, hooks into every way apps can even run and lets me choose which to allow/disallow, and still provides me the freedom to run whatever I want and share whatever data I want with whichever app I want. I'm not dreaming of much more, largely because I already have quite a lot.

natch 9y ago

Your comment is a mixed bag. Have you owned an iPhone lately? It does work in a lot of ways. When you say it doesn't work against dedicated attackers, maybe you are thinking of an iPhone 6 hacked by an Israeli security company paid by the FBI? For one thing, most people don't have the resources of the FBI. And I think Apple has raised the bar significantly in the three or more generations since that device. If you were to own an iPhone and also apply some conscious awareness to noticing what it does on your behalf to protect your security, I think you would agree it has a lot of very effective measures to protect users.

pritambaral 9y ago
No,I'm talking about dedicated attackers of any level against naive, unsuspecting users, as you brought up. The FBI case was against a user who knew the FBI was after their data, thus not unsuspecting. Social engineering, for one, is much easier against naive unsuspecting users than wiping their phone and hoping they wouldn't bother. For those who truly care about their own data security though, a wiped phone is an instant siren. ---- I have used an iPhone, though only for a short while, and not long enough to get used to it. I agree it goes a great, great distance to protect users against everyone not blessed by Apple. But then I have greater data security on my laptop and far greater freedom too, so Apple's offering doesn't seem like a good enough deal to me.
- natch 9y ago
  With mobile there are some constraints that are not a factor on a laptop. For example you don't have a full sized hardware keyboard. Which seems obvious, yet you are expecting a better deal than what you perceive Apple is offering. And you are making the unfair comparison to a laptop. Also with a laptop the use cases generally can tolerate a bit more delay in the login process, with a few seconds being tolerable, whereas with mobile devices a login process over a second starts to get intolerable very quickly as the length of the process increases. Again this may be obvious and yet you seem oblivious to it as a consideration, as you expect a better offer, as though there are no constraints and tradeoffs, or you are unaware of them. Mobile device designers and mobile system designers deal with this stuff every day for years on end. They know a lot about it, and have thought stuff through way more than some of us. It's super easy for you to criticize from a position of relative ignorance (not even a current iOS user...) but I'm pretty sure they are still following the mantra of trying to make stuff insanely great. Still, you can dream of even better devices. I'm sure the bar will keep being raised. Let's hope we get there to a place where we do have both freedom and security.
  - pritambaral 9y ago
    I'm aware of the constraints being different on a mobile vs. a laptop. But that is no reason to pivot your arguments from "But Apple gives you so much security it's okay for you to give up freedom" to "But it's a mobile; Apple can't give you that much security; you'll just have to deal with it". > Again this may be obvious and yet you seem oblivious to it as a consideration, as you expect a better offer, as though there are no constraints and tradeoffs, or you are unaware of them. I'm not oblivious to the tradeoffs of security. I know that if I set a long password it only makes every login that much more tedious. And that's my problem to deal with. But to have no choice, no freedom, no chance of owing your device, in the name of "security", is either unmindful or wilfully ignorant of a manufacturer. ---- You keep saying I'm not a current iOS user so I couldn't possibly see the great things iOS does. I merely doubt it could do anything beyond generally security focused OSes. For example, my current mobile OS has a separate decryption password at boot, scrambles the lock screen numeric layout, compartmentalizes my data, hooks into every way apps can request private data and lets me allow/disallow/fake it, hooks into every way apps can even run and lets me choose which to allow/disallow, and still provides me the freedom to run whatever I want and share whatever data I want with whichever app I want. I'm not dreaming of much more, largely because I already have quite a lot.