5 ms·

> He was actually on his way to South America. If you believe him and Russia. Weird that Russia and Hong Kong would let him board the Moscow flight with a revo

by gvv6 9y ago

> He was actually on his way to South America. If you believe him and Russia. Weird that Russia and Hong Kong would let him board the Moscow flight with a revoked passport (and an extradition request), but not the Havana flight. You can't rule out that the stuck-at-the-airport routine was just plausible deniability that Russia wasn't actively recruiting American intelligence assets. But, sure, if you believe him, he was trying to defect to some other country instead.

eesmith 9y ago
And Harrison and Greenwald. You also can't rule out that Hong Kong/China wanted to get rid of him, to keep from being embroiled in precisely the international brouhaha that happened. Snowden applied for political asylum in 20 or so countries. If one of them had accepted - let's say Germany, Finland or India - then your hypothesis is no longer valid, no? It seems very risky to do all that if his goal is to defect to Russia. Had one other nation granted asylum, it would have ruined his narrative. Regarding "to defect", has he pledged allegiance or loyalty to Russia? Otherwise, why isn't he simply an exile? Do you consider all of the Cubans who fled to the US also defectors from Cuba?
- yellowapple 9y ago
  "Do you consider all of the Cubans who fled to the US also defectors from Cuba?" I suspect Cuba might.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    How does that shed light on anything? Even if the Cuban government regards them as defectors, does that make them no longer exiles? Since if you want to reframe the question that way, does the US government - not some people in the US, but the US government - consider Assata Shakur a defector? Or William Morales? When Eldridge Cleaver fled to exile in Cuba was he considered a defector? Several years later, when he continued his exile but in Algeria, was that another defection? (Or Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin's exile, first in Cuba than Czechoslovakia; or all the others listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_citizens_granted_political_asylum_in_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_citizens... .) If the US does not consider all of those to be defections, then what makes Snowden a defector?
ionised 9y ago
His passport was revoked while he was in Russia, not China. He handed over ALL documents to journalists before boarding a plane to Russia. He had no information to give the Russians as it was all about to hit the papers under someone else's guidance. The whole Russian agent argument just reeks of pig-headed, jingoistic unwillingness to look a simple fact in the face; Russia granted asylum because Russia loves telling the US "no" and giving them the middle finger. Instead Snowden's detractors are coming up with all manner of mental gymnastics to justify why they believe an American might leak sensitive intelligence, because perish the thought the US might not be the paragons of virtue they make themselves out to be. What an uncomfortable thought for its citizens, subjected to weird exceptionalist propaganda from childhood, forced to recite pledges of allegiance as a child like some weird cult.
GcVmvNhBsU 9y ago
Also interesting that he spent his birthday at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong. Not to say that Snowden planned to "defect" to Russia. But we're seeing how skillfully the FSB played the Trump campaign. Let's consider the possibility that they played Snowden and Greenwald as well.
- imron 9y ago
  > But we're seeing how skillfully the FSB played the Trump campaign. Someone's being played, that's for sure. As a non-American, what I find amusing is how quickly the rhetoric changed from before the election "elections can't be rigged/influenced, Trump should stop complaining and such claims undermine democracy" to "Russia/Trump hacked^H^H^H^H^H^H colluded to influence the election and undermine democracy" once Trump won. Heads I win, tails you lose.

by gvv6 9y ago

eesmith 9y ago

And Harrison and Greenwald. You also can't rule out that Hong Kong/China wanted to get rid of him, to keep from being embroiled in precisely the international brouhaha that happened. Snowden applied for political asylum in 20 or so countries. If one of them had accepted - let's say Germany, Finland or India - then your hypothesis is no longer valid, no? It seems very risky to do all that if his goal is to defect to Russia. Had one other nation granted asylum, it would have ruined his narrative. Regarding "to defect", has he pledged allegiance or loyalty to Russia? Otherwise, why isn't he simply an exile? Do you consider all of the Cubans who fled to the US also defectors from Cuba?

yellowapple 9y ago
"Do you consider all of the Cubans who fled to the US also defectors from Cuba?" I suspect Cuba might.
- eesmith 9y ago
  How does that shed light on anything? Even if the Cuban government regards them as defectors, does that make them no longer exiles? Since if you want to reframe the question that way, does the US government - not some people in the US, but the US government - consider Assata Shakur a defector? Or William Morales? When Eldridge Cleaver fled to exile in Cuba was he considered a defector? Several years later, when he continued his exile but in Algeria, was that another defection? (Or Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin's exile, first in Cuba than Czechoslovakia; or all the others listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_citizens_granted_political_asylum_in_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_citizens... .) If the US does not consider all of those to be defections, then what makes Snowden a defector?

ionised 9y ago

His passport was revoked while he was in Russia, not China. He handed over ALL documents to journalists before boarding a plane to Russia. He had no information to give the Russians as it was all about to hit the papers under someone else's guidance. The whole Russian agent argument just reeks of pig-headed, jingoistic unwillingness to look a simple fact in the face; Russia granted asylum because Russia loves telling the US "no" and giving them the middle finger. Instead Snowden's detractors are coming up with all manner of mental gymnastics to justify why they believe an American might leak sensitive intelligence, because perish the thought the US might not be the paragons of virtue they make themselves out to be. What an uncomfortable thought for its citizens, subjected to weird exceptionalist propaganda from childhood, forced to recite pledges of allegiance as a child like some weird cult.

GcVmvNhBsU 9y ago

Also interesting that he spent his birthday at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong. Not to say that Snowden planned to "defect" to Russia. But we're seeing how skillfully the FSB played the Trump campaign. Let's consider the possibility that they played Snowden and Greenwald as well.

imron 9y ago
> But we're seeing how skillfully the FSB played the Trump campaign. Someone's being played, that's for sure. As a non-American, what I find amusing is how quickly the rhetoric changed from before the election "elections can't be rigged/influenced, Trump should stop complaining and such claims undermine democracy" to "Russia/Trump hacked^H^H^H^H^H^H colluded to influence the election and undermine democracy" once Trump won. Heads I win, tails you lose.