8 ms·

I still don't quite understand why she's such a cause celebre. She was a dumb kid who did dumb stuff for what she thought were noble reasons. The conditions of

I still don't quite understand why she's such a cause celebre. She was a dumb kid who did dumb stuff for what she thought were noble reasons. The conditions of her detainment seemed unduly harsh, but I don't see her as any kind of thought leader. I've no particularly bad feelings towards her, I just don't see what I'm meant to be celebrating about her either. Snowden, however, I have huge respect for. Can someone put me right?

djrobstep 9y ago
The US military is a deeply evil institution and exposing their war crimes is good. People brave enough to do that deserve our respect and praise.
- Caveman_Coder 9y ago
  > "US military is a deeply evil institution" How so? I'm curious about what you classify as "evil."
  - ionised 9y ago
    Their actions maybe?
    - Caveman_Coder 9y ago
      Care to elaborate please? I mean specifics, for example most people agree that waterboarding, torture, etc. are "evil," but what about things like PsyOps? I want to know what actions the commenter thinks are evil versus what actions are legitimate.
      - mmjaa 9y ago
        Countless, endless warfare. Un-counted victims, streaming across the landscape, being hidden from the American public by its military-industrial masters. Americans are, still today, very very ignorant of what their sovereign nation state is up to, in their name. American responsibility for American war power is at an all-time low: this is the only reason America is able to get away with such heinous crimes as the complete and utter destruction of Mosul, Raqqa, etc. by the so-called "Coalition", a super-legal entity formed by the American military-industrial complex in order to commence world war three. (If you don't think WW3 is currently being fought, having been started by the West, then I urge you to get up right now and start looking. Because, folks, the West are the bad guys this time around. We've been the aggressors in this war for decades now, and its only going to come home to roost sooner or later. Get up, and make yourself aware of just how much destruction the Coalition is causing around the globe. This is going to come back to us.)
        Caveman_Coder 9y ago
        > "...military-industrial masters" Who are these "masters" if you had to elaborate? CEOs of Raytheon/Halliburton/General Dynamics/Lockhead Martin/etc?
        mmjaa 9y ago
        Yup. Look behind the smoke and the mirrors of America's corrupt political donor system, and you see the real power. Of course, thats not easy - these people don't want to be known. But, it has to be done if you want to understand just why America is in a state of perpetual war.
        chickenfries 9y ago
        > I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. Smedley Butler, United States Marine Corps major general
      - ionised 9y ago
        Off the top of my head; Syphilis tests on homeless and mentally disturbed black men. Subjecting mentally disturbed people to experiments with LSD. Overthrowing democratically elected governments to protect their own economic interests. Operation Paperclip. The lies leading to the Iraq war. Operation Northwoods and various other false flag operations. Iran-Contra. The My Lai massacre. The drone strike program where 4000+ civilian casualties is an acceptable collateral damage for an estimated ~100 militants killed. Chemical warfare in Korea and Vietnam. I'm could find a shit load more with some in-depth research but I'm at work.
        MrZongle2 9y ago
        And how many of those actions, aside from My Lai, were initiated by rank-and-file enlisted men or low-level officers? Because those men and women make up the bulk of the so-called "evil" US Military.
        ionised 9y ago
        "I was just following orders" has not been a credible defence since the Nuremberg trials.
        MrZongle2 9y ago
        The question still stands.
- honestoHeminway 9y ago
  No, the act deserves prais and respect. People- are just people, they do deserve a normal live - and that they are persecuted is wrong. But you do not become a holy saint by dissenting and one good act does not make one a good actor for all eternity.
- MrZongle2 9y ago
  Even these guys: http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/hundreds-rescues-orchestrated-remotely-northwest-during-hurricane-harvey http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/hundreds-rescues-orchestrated-... ? What about these guys: https://www.army.mil/article/189021/new_york_national_guard_fills_over_400000_sandbags_and_keeps_working_as_lake_ontario_overflows https://www.army.mil/article/189021/new_york_national_guard_... ? How about them: http://journalstar.com/news/local/911/person-nebraska-national-guard-medical-team-to-be-deployed-to/article_a9ab3f23-7fb0-580d-9042-240a6672bc40.html http://journalstar.com/news/local/911/person-nebraska-nation... ? Last I checked, the National Guard is part of the US Military. Care to revise your statement?
dogecoinbase 9y ago
I just don't see what I'm meant to be celebrating about her either. Snowden, however, I have huge respect for. Can someone put me right? List the things you admire about Snowden, and decide why they don't apply to Manning.
- 88 9y ago
  Snowden went to great lengths to ensure responsible disclosure of the material he leaked.
  - dogecoinbase 9y ago
    The assertion, I suppose, being that at the time it should have been obvious that Wikileaks was deeply untrustworthy?
    - eesmith 9y ago
      Which disclosures ended up being irresponsible?
  - saint_fiasco 9y ago
    Maybe seeing Manning and Assange fuck that up inspired him to be extra careful.
  - gvv6 9y ago
    Like bringing it to China?
  - liberte82 9y ago
    This is an aside, but his whole flight to Russia thing was pretty amazing, like out of a spy movie. It's amazing he didn't get caught.
manyhands 9y ago
You also don't see her as a him, which is further evidence that you might not be thinking clearly here.
moomin 9y ago
It's worth reading the Vanity Fair article about her. The interesting thing is that she one hundred percent accepts that what she did was wrong but has interesting things to say about a) her motivations b) her incarceration and c) being trans in the military. She's become pretty interesting since her release.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
themgt 9y ago
Agreed. At the time I supported Manning's actions to a degree, although I think it could have been done better (for which Assange shares the blame). But 10 minutes spent perusing her Twitter feed [1] leaves the impression of an incredibly confused and narcissistic person with very little nuance, depth or novelty in her thoughts. Say what you will about Snowden but it's hard to argue he has more interesting things to contribute to an intellectual conversation. [1] https://twitter.com/xychelsea https://twitter.com/xychelsea
- mbrock 9y ago
  Do you think she's incredibly confused and narcissistic because she uses a lot of emojis and sometimes posts selfies?
  - elefanten 9y ago
    I think she's naive and not very credible when she advocates things like: -dismantling the CIA -dismantling the presidency -the notion that the CIA dictates what Harvard teaches -no borders And that's just from the last week or so. She doesn't strike me as someone with very nuanced positions. edit: case in point https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/903326954266517504 https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/903326954266517504
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      Well, I for one don't think that people have to be 'bright' to have integrity, that said, I'm not sure she has a lot of integrity. I think what she did was very, very wrong, but I'm also sympathetic - she was pretty young. Young people do dumb things sometimes.
    - cup 9y ago
      - Does the CIA provide a net positive or negative effect on the globe? - There are alternative political systems available - I'd be surprised if the CIA didn't exert influence over Harvard - Borders are a modern development.
Synaesthesia 9y ago
Without Chelsea Manning we would not have known about the “collateral murder” video. The entire military colludes to cover up this kind of information. What she did was release information to the public, which ought to be public knowledge, and as far as I’m aware, despite the bluster of “aiding the enemy”, nobody has been killed or harmed as a result of the leaks.
- gvv6 9y ago
  The day after it happened, three years before WikiLeaks published the video: https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEED81E3EF930A25754C0A9619C8B63 https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEED81E3E... Doesn't seem like a cover up to me.
  - ionised 9y ago
    That article gives you the impression the journalists/civilians were killed in the chaos. The Collateral Murder video shows you what actually happened, and the clear intent and callous laughter from those total shitheels in the gunship. It was a war crime and the public deserved to see the video.
gvv6 9y ago
She did what she did because she was depressed that a since-repealed law forced her to live a lie or lose her job, and her friendship with Assange helped with the alienation. She recognizes what she did was wrong, plead guilty to half the charges, and served her time. Snowden fled to China to leak what he did and then defected to Russia. He barely acknowledges the damage he did to US intelligence, and insists he was right in doing it.
- imron 9y ago
  > and then defected to Russia He was stranded in Russia after the US cancelled his passport. He was actually on his way to South America. > and insists he was right in doing it. Many people would agree.
  - gvv6 9y ago
    > He was actually on his way to South America. If you believe him and Russia. Weird that Russia and Hong Kong would let him board the Moscow flight with a revoked passport (and an extradition request), but not the Havana flight. You can't rule out that the stuck-at-the-airport routine was just plausible deniability that Russia wasn't actively recruiting American intelligence assets. But, sure, if you believe him, he was trying to defect to some other country instead.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      And Harrison and Greenwald. You also can't rule out that Hong Kong/China wanted to get rid of him, to keep from being embroiled in precisely the international brouhaha that happened. Snowden applied for political asylum in 20 or so countries. If one of them had accepted - let's say Germany, Finland or India - then your hypothesis is no longer valid, no? It seems very risky to do all that if his goal is to defect to Russia. Had one other nation granted asylum, it would have ruined his narrative. Regarding "to defect", has he pledged allegiance or loyalty to Russia? Otherwise, why isn't he simply an exile? Do you consider all of the Cubans who fled to the US also defectors from Cuba?
haseebrabbani 9y ago
She revealed US war crimes which probaby inspired other whistleblowers to leak more damning information. All of these leaks confirmed the fake image the US had been portraying to the world and its own people. Cant speak for anyone else, but I dont like being lied to. But I guess some people dont mind...

djrobstep 9y ago

The US military is a deeply evil institution and exposing their war crimes is good. People brave enough to do that deserve our respect and praise.

Caveman_Coder 9y ago
> "US military is a deeply evil institution" How so? I'm curious about what you classify as "evil."
- ionised 9y ago
  Their actions maybe?
  - Caveman_Coder 9y ago
    Care to elaborate please? I mean specifics, for example most people agree that waterboarding, torture, etc. are "evil," but what about things like PsyOps? I want to know what actions the commenter thinks are evil versus what actions are legitimate.
    - mmjaa 9y ago
      Countless, endless warfare. Un-counted victims, streaming across the landscape, being hidden from the American public by its military-industrial masters. Americans are, still today, very very ignorant of what their sovereign nation state is up to, in their name. American responsibility for American war power is at an all-time low: this is the only reason America is able to get away with such heinous crimes as the complete and utter destruction of Mosul, Raqqa, etc. by the so-called "Coalition", a super-legal entity formed by the American military-industrial complex in order to commence world war three. (If you don't think WW3 is currently being fought, having been started by the West, then I urge you to get up right now and start looking. Because, folks, the West are the bad guys this time around. We've been the aggressors in this war for decades now, and its only going to come home to roost sooner or later. Get up, and make yourself aware of just how much destruction the Coalition is causing around the globe. This is going to come back to us.)
      - Caveman_Coder 9y ago
        > "...military-industrial masters" Who are these "masters" if you had to elaborate? CEOs of Raytheon/Halliburton/General Dynamics/Lockhead Martin/etc?
        mmjaa 9y ago
        Yup. Look behind the smoke and the mirrors of America's corrupt political donor system, and you see the real power. Of course, thats not easy - these people don't want to be known. But, it has to be done if you want to understand just why America is in a state of perpetual war.
        chickenfries 9y ago
        > I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. Smedley Butler, United States Marine Corps major general
    - ionised 9y ago
      Off the top of my head; Syphilis tests on homeless and mentally disturbed black men. Subjecting mentally disturbed people to experiments with LSD. Overthrowing democratically elected governments to protect their own economic interests. Operation Paperclip. The lies leading to the Iraq war. Operation Northwoods and various other false flag operations. Iran-Contra. The My Lai massacre. The drone strike program where 4000+ civilian casualties is an acceptable collateral damage for an estimated ~100 militants killed. Chemical warfare in Korea and Vietnam. I'm could find a shit load more with some in-depth research but I'm at work.
      - MrZongle2 9y ago
        And how many of those actions, aside from My Lai, were initiated by rank-and-file enlisted men or low-level officers? Because those men and women make up the bulk of the so-called "evil" US Military.
        ionised 9y ago
        "I was just following orders" has not been a credible defence since the Nuremberg trials.
        MrZongle2 9y ago
        The question still stands.
honestoHeminway 9y ago
No, the act deserves prais and respect. People- are just people, they do deserve a normal live - and that they are persecuted is wrong. But you do not become a holy saint by dissenting and one good act does not make one a good actor for all eternity.
MrZongle2 9y ago
Even these guys: http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/hundreds-rescues-orchestrated-remotely-northwest-during-hurricane-harvey http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/hundreds-rescues-orchestrated-... ? What about these guys: https://www.army.mil/article/189021/new_york_national_guard_fills_over_400000_sandbags_and_keeps_working_as_lake_ontario_overflows https://www.army.mil/article/189021/new_york_national_guard_... ? How about them: http://journalstar.com/news/local/911/person-nebraska-national-guard-medical-team-to-be-deployed-to/article_a9ab3f23-7fb0-580d-9042-240a6672bc40.html http://journalstar.com/news/local/911/person-nebraska-nation... ? Last I checked, the National Guard is part of the US Military. Care to revise your statement?

dogecoinbase 9y ago

I just don't see what I'm meant to be celebrating about her either. Snowden, however, I have huge respect for. Can someone put me right? List the things you admire about Snowden, and decide why they don't apply to Manning.

88 9y ago
Snowden went to great lengths to ensure responsible disclosure of the material he leaked.
- dogecoinbase 9y ago
  The assertion, I suppose, being that at the time it should have been obvious that Wikileaks was deeply untrustworthy?
  - eesmith 9y ago
    Which disclosures ended up being irresponsible?
- saint_fiasco 9y ago
  Maybe seeing Manning and Assange fuck that up inspired him to be extra careful.
- gvv6 9y ago
  Like bringing it to China?
- liberte82 9y ago
  This is an aside, but his whole flight to Russia thing was pretty amazing, like out of a spy movie. It's amazing he didn't get caught.

manyhands 9y ago

You also don't see her as a him, which is further evidence that you might not be thinking clearly here.

moomin 9y ago

It's worth reading the Vanity Fair article about her. The interesting thing is that she one hundred percent accepts that what she did was wrong but has interesting things to say about a) her motivations b) her incarceration and c) being trans in the military. She's become pretty interesting since her release.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

themgt 9y ago

Agreed. At the time I supported Manning's actions to a degree, although I think it could have been done better (for which Assange shares the blame). But 10 minutes spent perusing her Twitter feed [1] leaves the impression of an incredibly confused and narcissistic person with very little nuance, depth or novelty in her thoughts. Say what you will about Snowden but it's hard to argue he has more interesting things to contribute to an intellectual conversation. [1] https://twitter.com/xychelsea https://twitter.com/xychelsea

mbrock 9y ago
Do you think she's incredibly confused and narcissistic because she uses a lot of emojis and sometimes posts selfies?
- elefanten 9y ago
  I think she's naive and not very credible when she advocates things like: -dismantling the CIA -dismantling the presidency -the notion that the CIA dictates what Harvard teaches -no borders And that's just from the last week or so. She doesn't strike me as someone with very nuanced positions. edit: case in point https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/903326954266517504 https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/903326954266517504
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    Well, I for one don't think that people have to be 'bright' to have integrity, that said, I'm not sure she has a lot of integrity. I think what she did was very, very wrong, but I'm also sympathetic - she was pretty young. Young people do dumb things sometimes.
  - cup 9y ago
    - Does the CIA provide a net positive or negative effect on the globe? - There are alternative political systems available - I'd be surprised if the CIA didn't exert influence over Harvard - Borders are a modern development.

Synaesthesia 9y ago

Without Chelsea Manning we would not have known about the “collateral murder” video. The entire military colludes to cover up this kind of information. What she did was release information to the public, which ought to be public knowledge, and as far as I’m aware, despite the bluster of “aiding the enemy”, nobody has been killed or harmed as a result of the leaks.

gvv6 9y ago
The day after it happened, three years before WikiLeaks published the video: https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEED81E3EF930A25754C0A9619C8B63 https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEED81E3E... Doesn't seem like a cover up to me.
- ionised 9y ago
  That article gives you the impression the journalists/civilians were killed in the chaos. The Collateral Murder video shows you what actually happened, and the clear intent and callous laughter from those total shitheels in the gunship. It was a war crime and the public deserved to see the video.

gvv6 9y ago

She did what she did because she was depressed that a since-repealed law forced her to live a lie or lose her job, and her friendship with Assange helped with the alienation. She recognizes what she did was wrong, plead guilty to half the charges, and served her time. Snowden fled to China to leak what he did and then defected to Russia. He barely acknowledges the damage he did to US intelligence, and insists he was right in doing it.

imron 9y ago
> and then defected to Russia He was stranded in Russia after the US cancelled his passport. He was actually on his way to South America. > and insists he was right in doing it. Many people would agree.
- gvv6 9y ago
  > He was actually on his way to South America. If you believe him and Russia. Weird that Russia and Hong Kong would let him board the Moscow flight with a revoked passport (and an extradition request), but not the Havana flight. You can't rule out that the stuck-at-the-airport routine was just plausible deniability that Russia wasn't actively recruiting American intelligence assets. But, sure, if you believe him, he was trying to defect to some other country instead.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    And Harrison and Greenwald. You also can't rule out that Hong Kong/China wanted to get rid of him, to keep from being embroiled in precisely the international brouhaha that happened. Snowden applied for political asylum in 20 or so countries. If one of them had accepted - let's say Germany, Finland or India - then your hypothesis is no longer valid, no? It seems very risky to do all that if his goal is to defect to Russia. Had one other nation granted asylum, it would have ruined his narrative. Regarding "to defect", has he pledged allegiance or loyalty to Russia? Otherwise, why isn't he simply an exile? Do you consider all of the Cubans who fled to the US also defectors from Cuba?

haseebrabbani 9y ago

She revealed US war crimes which probaby inspired other whistleblowers to leak more damning information. All of these leaks confirmed the fake image the US had been portraying to the world and its own people. Cant speak for anyone else, but I dont like being lied to. But I guess some people dont mind...