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https://www.justsecurity.org/44289/sonic-attacks-diplomats-cuba-dont-rush-conclusions/ https://www.justsecurity.org/44289/sonic-attacks-diplomats-c...

Osmium 9y ago
Great link. This is just incredible: > However, the substance was at least a step up from earlier Russian tracking devices like radioactive nails hammered into the tires of U.S. diplomatic vehicles, allowing Russian surveillance vehicles to hang back unseen and follow along by using special equipment to track targets’ tire residue. The method of identifying moles is ingenious too.
- liberte82 9y ago
  What is it about Russia that makes them so partial to espionage as a preferred method? From the Cold War to today's cyberattacks, they manage to use intelligence gathering and espionage as a method of maintaining disproportionate world power. Is it cultural? If so where does it come from, and when did it start? America has great intelligence capabilities as well, but in general you tend to think of it as more of a "brute force", or "diplomacy" type of nation, while Russia's strategies tend to be more asymmetric.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    > Is it cultural? It's cheap. You need a few people and clever ideas rather than enormous capital. Russia has people and education.
    - Giorgi 9y ago
      It is partially cultural too, Stalin started it, he though knowledge was most important resource and he was right too.
      - jonnathanson 9y ago
        The tradition of Russian espionage predates Stalin and, in fact, predates the USSR altogether. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana During the Cold War, the USSR stepped up the size and sophistication of its covert operations and intel apparatus dramatically. But the Russians have always believed in espionage as an effective, asymmetrical advantage.
        cat199 9y ago
        what country hasn't, ever?
        jonnathanson 9y ago
        There's a difference between theory and praxis that we need to consider here. Most countries "believe" in espionage; the Russians have always invested in it as a sort of national discipline. Russia 'specializes' in spycraft, you might say.
        dmix 9y ago
        I would still put this into the cultural camp. But I tend to see culture as a reflection of many factors including social, genetics, generational (which includes technological which is itself influenced by the overall culture), evolutionary aspects, and competition factors (which positively influence evolutionary and social aspects vs -say- a dormant passive society), not just social factors which culture is typically view as a product of.
  - 24gttghh 9y ago
    Maybe they read The Art of War and actually took it seriously? The entire final chapter is about espionage. And chapter III: > It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles;
  - SZJX 9y ago
    Or is it? If the operations are truly intended to be espionage and thus covert of course you won't hear it in the mass media, which would only tend to report busted enemy operations. CIA has massive operations everywhere. Basing everything you think on the mass media would not be smart to say the least.
lvoudour 9y ago
Great read, gives a logical theory and really puts things into perspective. While government sponsored surveillance is still going strong, the cold war was crazy. Imagine for a moment if the internet (correction: the web) was invented and became popular during a cold war era. that would be fun
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  The predecessor of the internet (ARPANet) was invented during the cold war, I wouldn't doubt if there were attempts to use it by both the US and Russia. Also I'd argue that the cold war is still very much active on the internet, "russian hackers" is a common subject in the news. Whether that's really Russian hackers or just playing the blame game is up for debate of course. Blaming things on the Russians was another common thing during the cold war.
  - nl 9y ago
    Whether that's really Russian hackers or just playing the blame game is up for debate of course. If you are implying there's any doubt about Russian involvement in hacking aimed at the US election, there really isn't any credible doubt about that. No one argued that ATP-28 and ATP-29 weren't Russian when they hacked the IOC and drug testing labs right after the Russian athletes were banned from the Olympic games. Nor back in 2014[1] when the FireEye assessment was first done. Nor in 2015, when they hacked the White House[2] Nor during 2016, prior to the election when they were identified[3] It's only after the election that people suddenly don't want to believe it. [1] https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2014/10/apt28-a-window-into-russias-cyber-espionage-operations.html https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2014/10/apt28-a... [2] http://www.thedailybeast.com/obama-to-putin-stop-hacking-me http://www.thedailybeast.com/obama-to-putin-stop-hacking-me [3] https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/ https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democ...
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      How can you be sure?
rantanplan 9y ago
> A less high-tech component of the attack reportedly included using a dwarf to scale inside the embassy wall and emplace listening devices. Amazing
- kbart 9y ago
  This sounds more like a scene from Agent007 movie than real world events. I'm interested what techniques are used today, as we have so many advanced technological means..
  - freeflight 9y ago
    The human element will always beat technology, cheaper simpler and more effective. It's far simpler to just sent in some dude, who pretends to be a common burglar should get caught, instead of building super fancy nano-drones which could fail/crash, then serve as evidence and would be studied for their technology. It's the same reason why social engineering is one of the most common attack vectors for high-profile breaches, some persuasiveness can go a long way.
    - koffiezet 9y ago
      That might work for stuff like industrial espionage, but when it comes down to embassies and diplomats, where there is awareness of social engineering, this is not that obvious. And when someone would break into an embassy, nobody is going to believe he's just a common burglar.
  - samstave 9y ago
    What was that movie where the guy was given a remote controlled electronic beetle he flew into the house via a cell phone controller in order to ID a terrorist for the drone bombing?
    - booleandilemma 9y ago
      Eye in the Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_in_the_Sky_(2015_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_in_the_Sky_(2015_film)
huhtenberg 9y ago
> The Russian security services were also known to flood the U.S. embassy in Moscow with electromagnetic radiation. They would beam concentrated microwaves and electronic pulses at the Embassy in an attempt to eavesdrop on U.S. typewriters and conversations. In the 1970s, a U.S. Ambassador contracted and died of a blood disease that many assumed to be a result of the attacks. This goes both ways. From what I remember there was _exactly_ the same case reported of the US security services blasting Soviet embassy in Washington with EM radiation, which led to several cases of blood cancer in personnel, all of which were ultimately lethal.
- xattt 9y ago
  But microwaves are non-ionizing and do not cause damage to the DNA to cause a cancer to develop.
  - huhtenberg 9y ago
    No idea, mate. I read this more than 20 years ago, so the "EM" part might be off, but the article revolved around the fact that there was an abnormally high number of former Washington embassy employees from certain time period that died of blood cancer. The cause was stated to be some kind of external irradiation.
  - 13years 9y ago
    Certainly there could be other pathways to cancer. We know there are lots of things that contribute to cancer other than ionizing radiation. For example, improperly functioning immune system can lead to cancer. It could be there is a pathway using EM not well understood.
kafkaesq 9y ago
Keep in mind that Sipher's post, while interesting for the historical context, significantly pre-dates (by about 3 weeks) the AP findings, which bring significant new details into the picture (about both the severity of the symptoms, and what exactly people experienced in their hotel rooms). So while we still don't know exactly what happened, the plot does seem to be thickening.
dmix 9y ago
> While I have not served in Cuba, my experience in a number of similar hostile, high counterintelligence threat countries suggests that this is more likely a surveillance effort gone wrong, than the use of an offensive sonic weapon. Considering it happened in a hotel room in a targeted fashion I believe this is the most obvious answer. The story about the extreme lengths Russian's put into tapping the Moscow embassy is a classic: > Even the sidewalks and streets throughout the neighborhood were embedded with electronic collection gear which was designed to turn the embassy building into a giant antenna.
- duxup 9y ago
  As they note it also seems like an odd time for Cuba (if it is them) to choose to deploy a weapon with such obvious negative results. They're not getting anything out of this obviously and if you wanted to harm diplomats in a novel way... you'd probabbly save that for a better time and not expose it now.
- addHocker 9y ago
  There is psych warfare- which wins by depriving a diplomat of sleep.
- cairo_x 9y ago
  I'd be sleeping in a lead lined Faraday cage for sure.
  - dmix 9y ago
    You would most certainly be working in one (or the equivalent) at least, I'm not so sure about sleeping or living in one after work. Which is why I said the hotel connection leads me to believe it was a surveillance op gone wrong.

Osmium 9y ago

Great link. This is just incredible: > However, the substance was at least a step up from earlier Russian tracking devices like radioactive nails hammered into the tires of U.S. diplomatic vehicles, allowing Russian surveillance vehicles to hang back unseen and follow along by using special equipment to track targets’ tire residue. The method of identifying moles is ingenious too.

liberte82 9y ago
What is it about Russia that makes them so partial to espionage as a preferred method? From the Cold War to today's cyberattacks, they manage to use intelligence gathering and espionage as a method of maintaining disproportionate world power. Is it cultural? If so where does it come from, and when did it start? America has great intelligence capabilities as well, but in general you tend to think of it as more of a "brute force", or "diplomacy" type of nation, while Russia's strategies tend to be more asymmetric.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  > Is it cultural? It's cheap. You need a few people and clever ideas rather than enormous capital. Russia has people and education.
  - Giorgi 9y ago
    It is partially cultural too, Stalin started it, he though knowledge was most important resource and he was right too.
    - jonnathanson 9y ago
      The tradition of Russian espionage predates Stalin and, in fact, predates the USSR altogether. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana During the Cold War, the USSR stepped up the size and sophistication of its covert operations and intel apparatus dramatically. But the Russians have always believed in espionage as an effective, asymmetrical advantage.
      - cat199 9y ago
        what country hasn't, ever?
        jonnathanson 9y ago
        There's a difference between theory and praxis that we need to consider here. Most countries "believe" in espionage; the Russians have always invested in it as a sort of national discipline. Russia 'specializes' in spycraft, you might say.
      - dmix 9y ago
        I would still put this into the cultural camp. But I tend to see culture as a reflection of many factors including social, genetics, generational (which includes technological which is itself influenced by the overall culture), evolutionary aspects, and competition factors (which positively influence evolutionary and social aspects vs -say- a dormant passive society), not just social factors which culture is typically view as a product of.
- 24gttghh 9y ago
  Maybe they read The Art of War and actually took it seriously? The entire final chapter is about espionage. And chapter III: > It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles;
- SZJX 9y ago
  Or is it? If the operations are truly intended to be espionage and thus covert of course you won't hear it in the mass media, which would only tend to report busted enemy operations. CIA has massive operations everywhere. Basing everything you think on the mass media would not be smart to say the least.

lvoudour 9y ago

Great read, gives a logical theory and really puts things into perspective. While government sponsored surveillance is still going strong, the cold war was crazy. Imagine for a moment if the internet (correction: the web) was invented and became popular during a cold war era. that would be fun

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
The predecessor of the internet (ARPANet) was invented during the cold war, I wouldn't doubt if there were attempts to use it by both the US and Russia. Also I'd argue that the cold war is still very much active on the internet, "russian hackers" is a common subject in the news. Whether that's really Russian hackers or just playing the blame game is up for debate of course. Blaming things on the Russians was another common thing during the cold war.
- nl 9y ago
  Whether that's really Russian hackers or just playing the blame game is up for debate of course. If you are implying there's any doubt about Russian involvement in hacking aimed at the US election, there really isn't any credible doubt about that. No one argued that ATP-28 and ATP-29 weren't Russian when they hacked the IOC and drug testing labs right after the Russian athletes were banned from the Olympic games. Nor back in 2014[1] when the FireEye assessment was first done. Nor in 2015, when they hacked the White House[2] Nor during 2016, prior to the election when they were identified[3] It's only after the election that people suddenly don't want to believe it. [1] https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2014/10/apt28-a-window-into-russias-cyber-espionage-operations.html https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2014/10/apt28-a... [2] http://www.thedailybeast.com/obama-to-putin-stop-hacking-me http://www.thedailybeast.com/obama-to-putin-stop-hacking-me [3] https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/ https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democ...
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    How can you be sure?

rantanplan 9y ago

> A less high-tech component of the attack reportedly included using a dwarf to scale inside the embassy wall and emplace listening devices. Amazing

kbart 9y ago
This sounds more like a scene from Agent007 movie than real world events. I'm interested what techniques are used today, as we have so many advanced technological means..
- freeflight 9y ago
  The human element will always beat technology, cheaper simpler and more effective. It's far simpler to just sent in some dude, who pretends to be a common burglar should get caught, instead of building super fancy nano-drones which could fail/crash, then serve as evidence and would be studied for their technology. It's the same reason why social engineering is one of the most common attack vectors for high-profile breaches, some persuasiveness can go a long way.
  - koffiezet 9y ago
    That might work for stuff like industrial espionage, but when it comes down to embassies and diplomats, where there is awareness of social engineering, this is not that obvious. And when someone would break into an embassy, nobody is going to believe he's just a common burglar.
- samstave 9y ago
  What was that movie where the guy was given a remote controlled electronic beetle he flew into the house via a cell phone controller in order to ID a terrorist for the drone bombing?
  - booleandilemma 9y ago
    Eye in the Sky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_in_the_Sky_(2015_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_in_the_Sky_(2015_film)

huhtenberg 9y ago

> The Russian security services were also known to flood the U.S. embassy in Moscow with electromagnetic radiation. They would beam concentrated microwaves and electronic pulses at the Embassy in an attempt to eavesdrop on U.S. typewriters and conversations. In the 1970s, a U.S. Ambassador contracted and died of a blood disease that many assumed to be a result of the attacks. This goes both ways. From what I remember there was _exactly_ the same case reported of the US security services blasting Soviet embassy in Washington with EM radiation, which led to several cases of blood cancer in personnel, all of which were ultimately lethal.

xattt 9y ago
But microwaves are non-ionizing and do not cause damage to the DNA to cause a cancer to develop.
- huhtenberg 9y ago
  No idea, mate. I read this more than 20 years ago, so the "EM" part might be off, but the article revolved around the fact that there was an abnormally high number of former Washington embassy employees from certain time period that died of blood cancer. The cause was stated to be some kind of external irradiation.
- 13years 9y ago
  Certainly there could be other pathways to cancer. We know there are lots of things that contribute to cancer other than ionizing radiation. For example, improperly functioning immune system can lead to cancer. It could be there is a pathway using EM not well understood.

kafkaesq 9y ago

Keep in mind that Sipher's post, while interesting for the historical context, significantly pre-dates (by about 3 weeks) the AP findings, which bring significant new details into the picture (about both the severity of the symptoms, and what exactly people experienced in their hotel rooms). So while we still don't know exactly what happened, the plot does seem to be thickening.

dmix 9y ago

> While I have not served in Cuba, my experience in a number of similar hostile, high counterintelligence threat countries suggests that this is more likely a surveillance effort gone wrong, than the use of an offensive sonic weapon. Considering it happened in a hotel room in a targeted fashion I believe this is the most obvious answer. The story about the extreme lengths Russian's put into tapping the Moscow embassy is a classic: > Even the sidewalks and streets throughout the neighborhood were embedded with electronic collection gear which was designed to turn the embassy building into a giant antenna.

duxup 9y ago
As they note it also seems like an odd time for Cuba (if it is them) to choose to deploy a weapon with such obvious negative results. They're not getting anything out of this obviously and if you wanted to harm diplomats in a novel way... you'd probabbly save that for a better time and not expose it now.
addHocker 9y ago
There is psych warfare- which wins by depriving a diplomat of sleep.
cairo_x 9y ago
I'd be sleeping in a lead lined Faraday cage for sure.
- dmix 9y ago
  You would most certainly be working in one (or the equivalent) at least, I'm not so sure about sleeping or living in one after work. Which is why I said the hotel connection leads me to believe it was a surveillance op gone wrong.