5 ms·

As an American kid born along with the digital epoch of the 90s, I'm a bit of an oddity because the only social media I've ever used (& still use) is LinkedIn,

As an American kid born along with the digital epoch of the 90s, I'm a bit of an oddity because the only social media I've ever used (& still use) is LinkedIn, which feels like sharing a room with a vipor. I have it set up with a dedicated email address and I only interact w/it in a sandboxed browser on VPN with a dedicated email address. (I guess you could add HN, StackExchange and GitHub to the list since there are pretty social aspects to all three, but I don't know if they count.) Because I am this weirdo, I can't help being astounded at the level of comfortability people have in ecosystems like the ones Facebook and Google have cultivated. These are really creepy and dystopian models at their core. And they are not helping your damn social life! Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means, in fact most people respond more genuinely to it. So this is awesome right? Here's something proposing a fresh new model. Except nothing in this article/pitch addresses my concerns/issues with current social media. Like, as a paying member, are they aggregating "marketing" data on me? Are they going to try to follow me around the web and ID me with tracking scripts and under the table data trades with other players? Will they organize my data and sell it on as an "anonymized" individual profile ("Emperor {username}, we bring you new clothes. This is a magical anonymization cloak, making you invisible to any unsavory entities we sell your data to"). In fact, now I have even more questions/concerns! For example: 1) can toxic or just plain wrong information simply be brute-forced to the top with money (or digital tulips or whatever)? 2) how is this not just buying popularity and influence in a contrived environment? 3) do they cap the value of a post / vote or is this susceptible to weird bubbles? 4) if you do break the rules, do you pay to get out of trouble? This whole thing sounds like someone's been spending a long time getting investors on board and now can't seem to remember what the pitch to the consumers originally was.

hkmurakami 9y ago
>Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means, in fact most people respond more genuinely to it. You're not alone. This is a key driver to the popularity of messaging apps, in particular group chats.
joehewitt 9y ago
I used to feel that social networks were a waste of time (even when I worked for Facebook) but in the last couple years that has changed. My social life has been dramatically improved by Facebook because I started using it to socialize with people who share my hobby (growing fruit). Through Facebook groups I've made a number of new friends I never would have met otherwise. We communicate and share details of our hobby on a daily basis. It's great fun. I hardly use the site to socialize with my family and old friends - it's basically a glorified message board.
- alexanderdmitri 9y ago
  That's great and that is a positive contribution to your life, but it follows the same formula I'm very used to hearing: usecases = ["group events", "messaging", "staying in touch with people", "networking", "checking in once a month", &c()]; singleUsecase = pickWhatevs(usecases); otherStuff = pickNotWhatevs(singleUsecase, usecases); responseStr = "Well, I only use it for " + singleCase + ". I rarely use it for " + otherStuff + "." As a former employee you might have more insight than I do, but how exactly has a glorified message board which doesn't charge its users become one of the richest companies in the world? Sure they're a bit interested in the fruit growing hobby and that network, but they're also very interested in the ways you "hardly use the site" and they're even more interested in the things your doing when you don't even know they're still watching you. Even more interesting, you're actions on and off their platform can be correlated with heavy users of the site to infer traits they'll assign to you and sell on, true or not. At the end of the day, the way the species is evolving with the internet, giving someone permission to follow you around the web and collect that data on you is the same as giving them insights into your inner psyche, the majority of what composes your reality, and the things you value most in your life, among other things. These are things we should have a right to offer explicitly, not implicitly surrender. [edits to elaborate on a couple points and add helpers to the why I use FB excuse]
  - Joe-Z 9y ago
    >...but how exactly has a glorified message board which doesn't charge its users become one of the richest companies in the world? Because, as you just demonstrated with your programming example: For HIM it's a glorified message board. Other people may use it in completely different ways and appreciate it for them. I'm not the greatest facebook-fan either, but I think you're really overstating the control they have over people's lives here and at the same time understating the value it can provide to people. Unless of course all people using facebook are just damn idiots and don't know what they're getting themselves into! EDIT: 'control over people's lives' might be better phrased as 'knowledge about their activities/preferences'
Kiro 9y ago
> And they are not helping your damn social life! How do you know if you haven't even used them? Facebook is completely instrumental to my social life and I'm very happy with it. Also, what do you mean with "more direct means"? Is Facebook Messenger not direct enough?
- alexanderdmitri 9y ago
  I'll try to address each of your questions / points individually. The quote from me is probably too strongly worded on my part, but I really don't see the added value. You may have made it instrumental to your social life, but my personal opinion is the price is too high. Unfortunately, when the majority of people choose to pay the price, it switches from being a personal choice to being an expected exchange. This is fundamentally about the right to privacy and it's not something a rational person would trade away for something that can (and has been!) achieved without the terrible price tag. Usually if something provides a high value, like a car, you invest in it so you can see the returns. My qualm is not with the messaging service per say (I take more issue with the mass posts people make about their kids or others without consent, I believe that's wrong and cheapens inter-personal relationships). I mean, you have to realize they take your keyups, they know when you've reworded before sending and they're tying what you might think of as a personal conversation to the valuable profile you're consciously helping them build and capitalize on. I've been around a lot of people using messenger. I've found using the phone or email somewhat increases the likelihood of something tangible happening (general follow through) as well as thoughtfulness of the replies I receive. Obviously that's anecdotal and the jury's still out. I guess my question is, how can you assert Facebook would help someone's social life? I'm not debating your happiness with it. I'm just a little surprised your so comfortable using it. More direct means would include chatting in person, the proverbial snail mail (you got to admit, receiving a letter from someone you respect/love/h[oh]ld dear is great), phone call or text message. Except for the last one, each one contains a ton more social queues than a chat group.
  - Kiro 9y ago
    I don't want any physical mails and I never pick up when people call me. That you seem to think this is something everyone loves is telling. We're simply different creatures and that's why I use Facebook and you don't.
Yizahi 9y ago
> Except nothing in this article/pitch addresses my concerns/issues with current social media. Exactly this. FB is spying on me and selling this info to the highest bidder. Are you (yours.org)?
mollusk 9y ago
>And they are not helping your damn social life! First of all, I use Facebook in a similar way (dedicated email, sandboxed browser, external tracking disabled (I know it still tracks me internally), not entirely my real name, no mobile apps, all paranoia privacy settings on, don't really share anything). And I only signed up there a year or two ago. But Facebook absolutely helped my social (and even professional) life. Even if I can reach people by other means, it doesn't change the fact that they prefer to keep in touch with Messenger, we have our private group chats there. Facebook lets me keep up with cultural (art/music) events, and also local dev meetups. I have my current relationship thanks to Facebook as well (I met her in real life first, but we only started to hang out because I looked her up and added her on Facebook and we started chatting there). I even got my dream dev job accidentally, because of a Facebook share by an acquaintance. Buy/sell groups also got me a lot of good deals, including my current apartment. That doesn't change the fact that, as a company, ethically, strategically etc. I despise Facebook. I hate their manipulative practices. Most of the information shared there is pure shit (but I can more or less choose not to follow it). Regardless, by not being there I'd be losing more than gaining. Now, LinkedIn I detest even more, thanks to the unsolicited invites from strangers that I get to my private email, even though I haven't even registered there, and I have no intention of doing so.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Facebook lets me keep up with cultural (art/music) events, and also local dev meetups. It's 2017. Between aggregators, dedicated sites, instant notifications, apps, Calendar sync et all, we probably have 1000 more ways than every decade in the 20th century to keep up with cultural events and local dev meetups. I don't think 60s', 70s and 80s culture and art events (and event goers) suffered because they didn't have Facebook to tell them... if anything, from concerts to art exhibition the scene was even more vibrant!
  - mollusk 9y ago
    It might be more country specific (I don't live in the United States, nor in a metropolis), and specific to the art/music scene and venues I'm interested in, but Facebook really covers most bases for me. And I often discover great events because some Facebook friend is interested in them. Some dev meetups are crossposted to meetup.com or eventbrite.com, but only some, and Facebook aggregates both for me. There's even a group for local IT events. I understand that things happened before 21st century, obviously, there's still posters, word of mouth, newsletters (in some cases, but they're not that popular over here), but these days, at least where I live, event organizers are using Facebook as a core platform to spread awareness. I certainly didn't know about a lot of these events before I joined Facebook. And there's events like bike rides, hiking trips etc. organized by individuals... on Facebook.
drusepth 9y ago
>Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means, in fact most people respond more genuinely to it. FWIW, some do. The only reason I signed up for Facebook was to have an asynchronous medium in which people can "contact" me, instead of trying to meet up, call my phone, text me, etc. I use Google+ for sharing photos/updates with my family while I travel, and LinkedIn for recruiter fishing. I use each of the above at least a few times a week, but always out of necessity; I've set a pretty solid standard of "I may take a couple weeks to respond, but I'll always respond" which is so much nicer than being constantly interrupted by people reaching out through direct means. Email was nice for this originally, but there's way less friction to contacting someone through FB than there is through email, and keeping social messages out of email keeps my inbox more manageable for productive uses without having to set up and maintain filters. Of course, YMMV. But just remember not everyone likes/minds the same things. :)
- dhimes 9y ago
  That's pretty much the only thing I don't do on facebook. That and play games.
jordancolburn 9y ago
LinkedIn: All the creepiness of a social network, with the addition of all the pushiness of a recruiter.
dwild 9y ago
> Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means I feel like you are from an older generation, not that there's anything wrong with it, but you probably no longer have the same needs as the younger generation. When I organize stuff, I don't always do it between 1 or 2 people. Once we were a dozen that went to an Escape Room, even more people were interested and even more were invited. It was barely organized days before. Sure it works coordinating through more direct means and people did that for a pretty long time, I feel like you had to when you had similar needs, but the thing is, there's a better tool for it nowadays which is Facebook. It's like saying you don't want to use the all good new framework because of the good old way that worked. Also, it's partially true, people do mind being in direct touch, we had some people that just disappear from our events (and some of them came back using a pseudonym later on) because of that reason. It's a central way to put everything if something goes bad, this is where it's updated if anything changes. Again, it's like saying you don't need a bug tracker because you can easily do it using emails. Yeah, it works, but it tiresome to do it that way. I personally don't care much about this tracking. It tracks mostly what I give it. I know what it does and I work with it. I'm not afraid of personalized offer, it's all good, offer me a new laptop for a great price, I would be happy to take a look and buy it if it does fit my criteria and my needs. I don't want Facebook to know that I'm interested in software engineering? Well, maybe that was dumb to tell it in the first place (and in that case, I would use more private means to follow that passion).
- clewis 9y ago
  What is the cost of the new framework versus the old? I spend 0.0 hours per week on facebook, and 0.25 hours per week coordinating activities directly. How much time do you spend on facebook?
krazypanda 9y ago
Your username happens to be your real name.

hkmurakami 9y ago

>Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means, in fact most people respond more genuinely to it. You're not alone. This is a key driver to the popularity of messaging apps, in particular group chats.

joehewitt 9y ago

I used to feel that social networks were a waste of time (even when I worked for Facebook) but in the last couple years that has changed. My social life has been dramatically improved by Facebook because I started using it to socialize with people who share my hobby (growing fruit). Through Facebook groups I've made a number of new friends I never would have met otherwise. We communicate and share details of our hobby on a daily basis. It's great fun. I hardly use the site to socialize with my family and old friends - it's basically a glorified message board.

alexanderdmitri 9y ago
That's great and that is a positive contribution to your life, but it follows the same formula I'm very used to hearing: usecases = ["group events", "messaging", "staying in touch with people", "networking", "checking in once a month", &c()]; singleUsecase = pickWhatevs(usecases); otherStuff = pickNotWhatevs(singleUsecase, usecases); responseStr = "Well, I only use it for " + singleCase + ". I rarely use it for " + otherStuff + "." As a former employee you might have more insight than I do, but how exactly has a glorified message board which doesn't charge its users become one of the richest companies in the world? Sure they're a bit interested in the fruit growing hobby and that network, but they're also very interested in the ways you "hardly use the site" and they're even more interested in the things your doing when you don't even know they're still watching you. Even more interesting, you're actions on and off their platform can be correlated with heavy users of the site to infer traits they'll assign to you and sell on, true or not. At the end of the day, the way the species is evolving with the internet, giving someone permission to follow you around the web and collect that data on you is the same as giving them insights into your inner psyche, the majority of what composes your reality, and the things you value most in your life, among other things. These are things we should have a right to offer explicitly, not implicitly surrender. [edits to elaborate on a couple points and add helpers to the why I use FB excuse]
- Joe-Z 9y ago
  >...but how exactly has a glorified message board which doesn't charge its users become one of the richest companies in the world? Because, as you just demonstrated with your programming example: For HIM it's a glorified message board. Other people may use it in completely different ways and appreciate it for them. I'm not the greatest facebook-fan either, but I think you're really overstating the control they have over people's lives here and at the same time understating the value it can provide to people. Unless of course all people using facebook are just damn idiots and don't know what they're getting themselves into! EDIT: 'control over people's lives' might be better phrased as 'knowledge about their activities/preferences'

Kiro 9y ago

> And they are not helping your damn social life! How do you know if you haven't even used them? Facebook is completely instrumental to my social life and I'm very happy with it. Also, what do you mean with "more direct means"? Is Facebook Messenger not direct enough?

alexanderdmitri 9y ago
I'll try to address each of your questions / points individually. The quote from me is probably too strongly worded on my part, but I really don't see the added value. You may have made it instrumental to your social life, but my personal opinion is the price is too high. Unfortunately, when the majority of people choose to pay the price, it switches from being a personal choice to being an expected exchange. This is fundamentally about the right to privacy and it's not something a rational person would trade away for something that can (and has been!) achieved without the terrible price tag. Usually if something provides a high value, like a car, you invest in it so you can see the returns. My qualm is not with the messaging service per say (I take more issue with the mass posts people make about their kids or others without consent, I believe that's wrong and cheapens inter-personal relationships). I mean, you have to realize they take your keyups, they know when you've reworded before sending and they're tying what you might think of as a personal conversation to the valuable profile you're consciously helping them build and capitalize on. I've been around a lot of people using messenger. I've found using the phone or email somewhat increases the likelihood of something tangible happening (general follow through) as well as thoughtfulness of the replies I receive. Obviously that's anecdotal and the jury's still out. I guess my question is, how can you assert Facebook would help someone's social life? I'm not debating your happiness with it. I'm just a little surprised your so comfortable using it. More direct means would include chatting in person, the proverbial snail mail (you got to admit, receiving a letter from someone you respect/love/h[oh]ld dear is great), phone call or text message. Except for the last one, each one contains a ton more social queues than a chat group.
- Kiro 9y ago
  I don't want any physical mails and I never pick up when people call me. That you seem to think this is something everyone loves is telling. We're simply different creatures and that's why I use Facebook and you don't.

Yizahi 9y ago

> Except nothing in this article/pitch addresses my concerns/issues with current social media. Exactly this. FB is spying on me and selling this info to the highest bidder. Are you (yours.org)?

mollusk 9y ago

>And they are not helping your damn social life! First of all, I use Facebook in a similar way (dedicated email, sandboxed browser, external tracking disabled (I know it still tracks me internally), not entirely my real name, no mobile apps, all paranoia privacy settings on, don't really share anything). And I only signed up there a year or two ago. But Facebook absolutely helped my social (and even professional) life. Even if I can reach people by other means, it doesn't change the fact that they prefer to keep in touch with Messenger, we have our private group chats there. Facebook lets me keep up with cultural (art/music) events, and also local dev meetups. I have my current relationship thanks to Facebook as well (I met her in real life first, but we only started to hang out because I looked her up and added her on Facebook and we started chatting there). I even got my dream dev job accidentally, because of a Facebook share by an acquaintance. Buy/sell groups also got me a lot of good deals, including my current apartment. That doesn't change the fact that, as a company, ethically, strategically etc. I despise Facebook. I hate their manipulative practices. Most of the information shared there is pure shit (but I can more or less choose not to follow it). Regardless, by not being there I'd be losing more than gaining. Now, LinkedIn I detest even more, thanks to the unsolicited invites from strangers that I get to my private email, even though I haven't even registered there, and I have no intention of doing so.

coldtea 9y ago
>Facebook lets me keep up with cultural (art/music) events, and also local dev meetups. It's 2017. Between aggregators, dedicated sites, instant notifications, apps, Calendar sync et all, we probably have 1000 more ways than every decade in the 20th century to keep up with cultural events and local dev meetups. I don't think 60s', 70s and 80s culture and art events (and event goers) suffered because they didn't have Facebook to tell them... if anything, from concerts to art exhibition the scene was even more vibrant!
- mollusk 9y ago
  It might be more country specific (I don't live in the United States, nor in a metropolis), and specific to the art/music scene and venues I'm interested in, but Facebook really covers most bases for me. And I often discover great events because some Facebook friend is interested in them. Some dev meetups are crossposted to meetup.com or eventbrite.com, but only some, and Facebook aggregates both for me. There's even a group for local IT events. I understand that things happened before 21st century, obviously, there's still posters, word of mouth, newsletters (in some cases, but they're not that popular over here), but these days, at least where I live, event organizers are using Facebook as a core platform to spread awareness. I certainly didn't know about a lot of these events before I joined Facebook. And there's events like bike rides, hiking trips etc. organized by individuals... on Facebook.

drusepth 9y ago

>Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means, in fact most people respond more genuinely to it. FWIW, some do. The only reason I signed up for Facebook was to have an asynchronous medium in which people can "contact" me, instead of trying to meet up, call my phone, text me, etc. I use Google+ for sharing photos/updates with my family while I travel, and LinkedIn for recruiter fishing. I use each of the above at least a few times a week, but always out of necessity; I've set a pretty solid standard of "I may take a couple weeks to respond, but I'll always respond" which is so much nicer than being constantly interrupted by people reaching out through direct means. Email was nice for this originally, but there's way less friction to contacting someone through FB than there is through email, and keeping social messages out of email keeps my inbox more manageable for productive uses without having to set up and maintain filters. Of course, YMMV. But just remember not everyone likes/minds the same things. :)

dhimes 9y ago
That's pretty much the only thing I don't do on facebook. That and play games.

jordancolburn 9y ago

LinkedIn: All the creepiness of a social network, with the addition of all the pushiness of a recruiter.

dwild 9y ago

> Believe me, people don't mind being in touch and coordinating through more direct means I feel like you are from an older generation, not that there's anything wrong with it, but you probably no longer have the same needs as the younger generation. When I organize stuff, I don't always do it between 1 or 2 people. Once we were a dozen that went to an Escape Room, even more people were interested and even more were invited. It was barely organized days before. Sure it works coordinating through more direct means and people did that for a pretty long time, I feel like you had to when you had similar needs, but the thing is, there's a better tool for it nowadays which is Facebook. It's like saying you don't want to use the all good new framework because of the good old way that worked. Also, it's partially true, people do mind being in direct touch, we had some people that just disappear from our events (and some of them came back using a pseudonym later on) because of that reason. It's a central way to put everything if something goes bad, this is where it's updated if anything changes. Again, it's like saying you don't need a bug tracker because you can easily do it using emails. Yeah, it works, but it tiresome to do it that way. I personally don't care much about this tracking. It tracks mostly what I give it. I know what it does and I work with it. I'm not afraid of personalized offer, it's all good, offer me a new laptop for a great price, I would be happy to take a look and buy it if it does fit my criteria and my needs. I don't want Facebook to know that I'm interested in software engineering? Well, maybe that was dumb to tell it in the first place (and in that case, I would use more private means to follow that passion).

clewis 9y ago
What is the cost of the new framework versus the old? I spend 0.0 hours per week on facebook, and 0.25 hours per week coordinating activities directly. How much time do you spend on facebook?

krazypanda 9y ago

Your username happens to be your real name.