4 ms·

My estimate is skewed downwards because you asked for average, and a significant percentage of the cohort is new grads and relatively inexperienced developers.

My estimate is skewed downwards because you asked for average, and a significant percentage of the cohort is new grads and relatively inexperienced developers. Senior developers can certainly make above $300k. You seem to put far too much stock in cost of living adjustments (a very common fallacy on HN). Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Instead of talking about bogus adjusted salaries, give me hard numbers on why you think $300k is a low salary. At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. > The taboo about salaries only stands to help employers. It also helps highly-paid workers who only have to justify their salary to managers instead of to all their peers as well. > Also, it's a negotiating tactic to have the other person throw out the first number It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable.

Clubber 9y ago
>Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. Only the big ones, housing, food, transportation. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Bullshit. http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-60k-san-fran-do-able-3.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-... >At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm >It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable. If it was between you and some other guy just like you and I asked each of you what you expected the salary to be without throwing out a number and you were $10K higher, I sure ain't hiring you. That's how it works.
- morgante 9y ago
  > Bullshit. Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience? Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. > Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be adjusted if you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location. I'm tired of fighting this fight on HN. Believe CoL calculators all you want—meanwhile, SV engineers can save enough to retire to the midwest by the time they're 35. > That's how it works. It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    >Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. But it's not your life is it? You're a top tier developer in SV making $200-300K+, not some guy living the good life and saving aggressively making $60K. >Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. This is what you said that was bullshit. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Nowhere on that forum does anyone say they can live a good life in SV for $60K a year leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. It's a bunch of single people living in 1-2 bedroom shoeboxes with two roommates and $200 to spare a month. Maybe we just have large difference in our definition of good life and aggressive savings. >Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Yes, I agree with that. That was something I pointed out, one of the only benefits of living and working in SV. It's still no place to plant roots, even on that salary. It just doesn't pay enough. That goes back to my original point. Developers are underpaid regardless of location, particularly for a field in such high demand. Here's some listings on Realtor.com for SF. https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/238-Thrift-St_San-Francisco_CA_94112_M16802-43777 https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/238-Thrift... A house the same size as mine (minus the yard) is 8x as expensive, yet a developer in SV only makes 2x more. I mean even if you buy a small little 1000 sq foot house, you're still paying 3-4x more than I am and you get less than half of the house. If you live in an apartment, you're just throwing your money away by not building any equity. >Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location. So ya, that's true but who cares? That's such a small percentage of your expenses. Like I said before, housing, transportation and food do scale with location and that's the majority of monthly expenditures, and also necessities. Also I'm sorry to tell you but $1 million after 10 years isn't enough to retire on at 35, even in the midwest. You'll have to invest wisely or take another job or start a profitable business. Once you have a family and get older, things get expensive, even in the midwest. You still have 50 years left to live with inflation, college, etc. >It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers. From the hiring side?

Clubber 9y ago

>Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. Only the big ones, housing, food, transportation. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Bullshit. http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-60k-san-fran-do-able-3.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-... >At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm >It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable. If it was between you and some other guy just like you and I asked each of you what you expected the salary to be without throwing out a number and you were $10K higher, I sure ain't hiring you. That's how it works.

morgante 9y ago
> Bullshit. Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience? Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. > Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be adjusted if you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location. I'm tired of fighting this fight on HN. Believe CoL calculators all you want—meanwhile, SV engineers can save enough to retire to the midwest by the time they're 35. > That's how it works. It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. But it's not your life is it? You're a top tier developer in SV making $200-300K+, not some guy living the good life and saving aggressively making $60K. >Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. This is what you said that was bullshit. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Nowhere on that forum does anyone say they can live a good life in SV for $60K a year leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. It's a bunch of single people living in 1-2 bedroom shoeboxes with two roommates and $200 to spare a month. Maybe we just have large difference in our definition of good life and aggressive savings. >Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Yes, I agree with that. That was something I pointed out, one of the only benefits of living and working in SV. It's still no place to plant roots, even on that salary. It just doesn't pay enough. That goes back to my original point. Developers are underpaid regardless of location, particularly for a field in such high demand. Here's some listings on Realtor.com for SF. https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/238-Thrift-St_San-Francisco_CA_94112_M16802-43777 https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/238-Thrift... A house the same size as mine (minus the yard) is 8x as expensive, yet a developer in SV only makes 2x more. I mean even if you buy a small little 1000 sq foot house, you're still paying 3-4x more than I am and you get less than half of the house. If you live in an apartment, you're just throwing your money away by not building any equity. >Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location. So ya, that's true but who cares? That's such a small percentage of your expenses. Like I said before, housing, transportation and food do scale with location and that's the majority of monthly expenditures, and also necessities. Also I'm sorry to tell you but $1 million after 10 years isn't enough to retire on at 35, even in the midwest. You'll have to invest wisely or take another job or start a profitable business. Once you have a family and get older, things get expensive, even in the midwest. You still have 50 years left to live with inflation, college, etc. >It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers. From the hiring side?