3 ms·

$200-300k in total compensation.

Clubber 9y ago
I don't want this to sound like it probably does but that's not overly impressive for a place like SV. I mean it sounds like a lot before you calculate cost of living (and it would be a lot here). A good self disciplined developer where I live (accounting for cost of living) would make the north end of that from a not very known company (that's not even a software company). A not great maintenance developer that requires a lot of direction with 5 years experience would make about $150K in SV (adjusted). I'm pointing this out because it's important for developers to know at least their (adjusted) market value. The taboo about salaries only stands to help employers. Also, it's a negotiating tactic to have the other person throw out the first number, that's why job listings rarely list salaries. For me, the only way I would gain is to collect a large (adjusted) salary for a few years, keeping my expenses as low as possible (not that easy in SV), then moving back to a lower cost of living area. That doesn't seem to be worth the trouble though. FWIW, I would expect a prime developer working for one of the big five to make at least double that based on what they contribute to the bottom line. That's not going to happen with the way the negotiation is stacked against an individual.
- morgante 9y ago
  My estimate is skewed downwards because you asked for average, and a significant percentage of the cohort is new grads and relatively inexperienced developers. Senior developers can certainly make above $300k. You seem to put far too much stock in cost of living adjustments (a very common fallacy on HN). Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Instead of talking about bogus adjusted salaries, give me hard numbers on why you think $300k is a low salary. At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. > The taboo about salaries only stands to help employers. It also helps highly-paid workers who only have to justify their salary to managers instead of to all their peers as well. > Also, it's a negotiating tactic to have the other person throw out the first number It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    >Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. Only the big ones, housing, food, transportation. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Bullshit. http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-60k-san-fran-do-able-3.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-... >At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm >It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable. If it was between you and some other guy just like you and I asked each of you what you expected the salary to be without throwing out a number and you were $10K higher, I sure ain't hiring you. That's how it works.
    - morgante 9y ago
      > Bullshit. Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience? Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. > Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be adjusted if you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location. I'm tired of fighting this fight on HN. Believe CoL calculators all you want—meanwhile, SV engineers can save enough to retire to the midwest by the time they're 35. > That's how it works. It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers.

I don't want this to sound like it probably does but that's not overly impressive for a place like SV. I mean it sounds like a lot before you calculate cost of living (and it would be a lot here). A good self disciplined developer where I live (accounting for cost of living) would make the north end of that from a not very known company (that's not even a software company). A not great maintenance developer that requires a lot of direction with 5 years experience would make about $150K in SV (adjusted). I'm pointing this out because it's important for developers to know at least their (adjusted) market value. The taboo about salaries only stands to help employers. Also, it's a negotiating tactic to have the other person throw out the first number, that's why job listings rarely list salaries. For me, the only way I would gain is to collect a large (adjusted) salary for a few years, keeping my expenses as low as possible (not that easy in SV), then moving back to a lower cost of living area. That doesn't seem to be worth the trouble though. FWIW, I would expect a prime developer working for one of the big five to make at least double that based on what they contribute to the bottom line. That's not going to happen with the way the negotiation is stacked against an individual.

morgante 9y ago
My estimate is skewed downwards because you asked for average, and a significant percentage of the cohort is new grads and relatively inexperienced developers. Senior developers can certainly make above $300k. You seem to put far too much stock in cost of living adjustments (a very common fallacy on HN). Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Instead of talking about bogus adjusted salaries, give me hard numbers on why you think $300k is a low salary. At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. > The taboo about salaries only stands to help employers. It also helps highly-paid workers who only have to justify their salary to managers instead of to all their peers as well. > Also, it's a negotiating tactic to have the other person throw out the first number It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. Only the big ones, housing, food, transportation. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Bullshit. http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-60k-san-fran-do-able-3.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-... >At the very least, tell me what bogus adjustment number you're using. Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/tc/79700.htm >It's a tactic but not a very good one. I've conducted my own split tests and anchoring with a high number tends to lead to much better results while not wasting your time on people who think paying a senior developer $120k is reasonable. If it was between you and some other guy just like you and I asked each of you what you expected the salary to be without throwing out a number and you were $10K higher, I sure ain't hiring you. That's how it works.
  - morgante 9y ago
    > Bullshit. Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience? Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. > Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be adjusted if you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location. I'm tired of fighting this fight on HN. Believe CoL calculators all you want—meanwhile, SV engineers can save enough to retire to the midwest by the time they're 35. > That's how it works. It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers.