6 ms·

Personally, I have a hard time imagining that any Facebook patents you use with React wouldn't also apply to Preact. Then again, I think this whole patents iss

Personally, I have a hard time imagining that any Facebook patents you use with React wouldn't also apply to Preact. Then again, I think this whole patents issue is mostly FUD. The number of companies who have to reasonably consider suing Facebook for patent infringement is small and they know who they are.

myhf 9y ago
If you have nothing to hide from Facebook, you have nothing to fear from Facebook.
- fetbaffe 9y ago
  How do you know that?
thristian 9y ago
My understanding is that you lose access to React if you sue Facebook over any patents at all, not just ones that may be relative to React.
- morgante 9y ago
  You lose the patent grant, which applies to all Facebook open source projects (not just React), so they can use all patents they own as part of a defensive portfolio. If initiating a patent war with Facebook is a foreseeable business outcome for you, then you probably shouldn't use React. I remain convinced that logic applies to only a tiny minority of companies.
  - samastur 9y ago
    What happens if you are not the one who initiated the patent war? My reading of the license is that you lose Facebook patent grant even if your lawsuit was a response to Facebook's. I am not a fan of (software) patents, but license restrictions are not limited to them either. So what is your recourse if Facebook decides to infringe yours? Assuming this is true (IANAL), would you still feel as comfortable advising companies to use React? I don't begrudge Facebook for their license for the same reasons that Matt stated, but I am highlighting this issue to my clients and would not recommend React's use because of it.
    - dilatorily 9y ago
      IANAL, but you do not lose the patent grant if your lawsuit is in response to Facebook's. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS#L21-L26 https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS#L21-L2...
      - samastur 9y ago
        I somehow missed that part. Thanks.
        pluma 9y ago
        Most people do, which is half the reason so many people obsess about it.
- Gaelan 9y ago
  You don't lose access to React. You lose access to any patents in React, but not the copyright. We don't even know of any React patents, so for all we know the entire document does nothing.
  - mbrock 9y ago
    From Facebook's FAQ about this issue: "Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate?" "No." https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556
  - oneweekwonder 9y ago
    > We don't even know of any React patents This might be the one[0]. [0]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242 https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242
- Jare 9y ago
  IANAL but: "Additional Grant of Patent Rights Version 2 ... The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion" Seems clear to me that you lose the license to use React. The clause that terminates the license is contained in a grant of rights, but the license it refers to, is the license to which this grant of rights is an "addition". Moreover: "A "Patent Assertion" is any lawsuit or other action alleging direct, indirect, or contributory infringement or inducement to infringe any patent, including a cross-claim or counterclaim." The "other action" is pretty broad and might as well include "use your patents in any way that goes against the interests of Facebook". Reading legal documents with a benevolent attitude towards the claims, intentions and goals of the issuer is a pretty bad idea. If anyone decides they won't ever have or deal with patents and thus they are free of danger, that risk is up to them; but don't do it because you think the clauses only cover a narrow and unlikely set of situations.
tdb7893 9y ago
I feel like there is practical worth in drawing a line in the sand, though. If all open source libraries had this then using open source would essentially mean you can't sue the big corporations (or having to go through some very lengthy and very expensive expensive engineering if you do). I think that outcome is bad for the industry as a whole and bad for open source in general and it's better to fight now than have to fight it when it's more established.
- guelo 9y ago
  Why would suing Facebook be good for anybody? Even if you're a VC backed startup and Facebook steals your patent it still would be a bad idea to sue Facebook. During this whole thing I've been agog because I can't figure out what the problem is. Patent lawsuits are bad!
invaliduser 9y ago
The facebook patent clause states that you lose the licence rights to use react if you sue facebook against any patent infringement (for patents you own). There is nothing in that saying that they have patents on react, and if they have patent covering, it very likely covers very much more than just react (because of the generic way patents are filed). «The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion» see https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS
- morgante 9y ago
  You should read more carefully, or listen to interpretations from lawyers. The license referred to in that document is the license to any Facebook patents granted within, which might not even exist. The patent grant is separate from the copyright license.
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
  No, this is wrong. You do not (and cannot, since it’s BSD) have your license to use React revoked. You do have your additional patent grant revoked - that is, if you sue Facebook for patent infringement, you will lose the right that they previously granted to use any and all patents covering React. If we assume that any patents covering React also cover the alternatives such as Preact, the nothing is gained by avoiding React.
pluma 9y ago
According to the author of Preact, that's unlikely because Preact's implementation is very different (it's not just a cleanroom implementation of the same thing). However I'd be more worried that Facebook might hold patents not limited to React itself. Considering how arbitrary software patents often are, I would think it equally as likely that they hold patents covering aspects of Angular or Vue as React. I would also think it's equally as likely that Google holds patents covering aspects of React or GraphQL. As far as I know, unlike GraphQL, nobody has found any patents filed by Facebook that would actually cover any part of React, so right now the patent grant seems to be more of a statement of intent. But expecting you can dodge patent lawsuits by using different technology is absurd. The only way to avoid software patent lawsuits is not to own, deploy or produce software. The only winning move is not to play.
- oneweekwonder 9y ago
  > nobody has found any patents filed by Facebook that would actually cover any part of React, Somebody on /r/ posted this[0]. [0]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242 https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242
  - christophilus 9y ago
    And I responded with this (curious for informed feedback): I just read it. I can't believe this patent was granted. If I'm reading it correctly, it's a patent for an old trick used by every OS and video game ever made. Basically, don't redraw things that aren't in view, and only redraw the bits of things that are in view. Anyway, I can't see how this is applicable to React, as it really isn't how the v-dom works at all. The v-dom isn't about failing to draw clipped items. The v-dom is about diffing two trees and only updating changed items. Am I totally off base here?
    - fiatjaf 9y ago
      Thank you, you made me comprehend why all software patents are nonsense.
    - 9y ago

myhf 9y ago

If you have nothing to hide from Facebook, you have nothing to fear from Facebook.

fetbaffe 9y ago
How do you know that?

thristian 9y ago

My understanding is that you lose access to React if you sue Facebook over any patents at all, not just ones that may be relative to React.

morgante 9y ago
You lose the patent grant, which applies to all Facebook open source projects (not just React), so they can use all patents they own as part of a defensive portfolio. If initiating a patent war with Facebook is a foreseeable business outcome for you, then you probably shouldn't use React. I remain convinced that logic applies to only a tiny minority of companies.
- samastur 9y ago
  What happens if you are not the one who initiated the patent war? My reading of the license is that you lose Facebook patent grant even if your lawsuit was a response to Facebook's. I am not a fan of (software) patents, but license restrictions are not limited to them either. So what is your recourse if Facebook decides to infringe yours? Assuming this is true (IANAL), would you still feel as comfortable advising companies to use React? I don't begrudge Facebook for their license for the same reasons that Matt stated, but I am highlighting this issue to my clients and would not recommend React's use because of it.
  - dilatorily 9y ago
    IANAL, but you do not lose the patent grant if your lawsuit is in response to Facebook's. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS#L21-L26 https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS#L21-L2...
    - samastur 9y ago
      I somehow missed that part. Thanks.
      - pluma 9y ago
        Most people do, which is half the reason so many people obsess about it.
Gaelan 9y ago
You don't lose access to React. You lose access to any patents in React, but not the copyright. We don't even know of any React patents, so for all we know the entire document does nothing.
- mbrock 9y ago
  From Facebook's FAQ about this issue: "Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate?" "No." https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556
- oneweekwonder 9y ago
  > We don't even know of any React patents This might be the one[0]. [0]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242 https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242
Jare 9y ago
IANAL but: "Additional Grant of Patent Rights Version 2 ... The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion" Seems clear to me that you lose the license to use React. The clause that terminates the license is contained in a grant of rights, but the license it refers to, is the license to which this grant of rights is an "addition". Moreover: "A "Patent Assertion" is any lawsuit or other action alleging direct, indirect, or contributory infringement or inducement to infringe any patent, including a cross-claim or counterclaim." The "other action" is pretty broad and might as well include "use your patents in any way that goes against the interests of Facebook". Reading legal documents with a benevolent attitude towards the claims, intentions and goals of the issuer is a pretty bad idea. If anyone decides they won't ever have or deal with patents and thus they are free of danger, that risk is up to them; but don't do it because you think the clauses only cover a narrow and unlikely set of situations.

tdb7893 9y ago

I feel like there is practical worth in drawing a line in the sand, though. If all open source libraries had this then using open source would essentially mean you can't sue the big corporations (or having to go through some very lengthy and very expensive expensive engineering if you do). I think that outcome is bad for the industry as a whole and bad for open source in general and it's better to fight now than have to fight it when it's more established.

guelo 9y ago
Why would suing Facebook be good for anybody? Even if you're a VC backed startup and Facebook steals your patent it still would be a bad idea to sue Facebook. During this whole thing I've been agog because I can't figure out what the problem is. Patent lawsuits are bad!

invaliduser 9y ago

The facebook patent clause states that you lose the licence rights to use react if you sue facebook against any patent infringement (for patents you own). There is nothing in that saying that they have patents on react, and if they have patent covering, it very likely covers very much more than just react (because of the generic way patents are filed). «The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion» see https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS

morgante 9y ago
You should read more carefully, or listen to interpretations from lawyers. The license referred to in that document is the license to any Facebook patents granted within, which might not even exist. The patent grant is separate from the copyright license.
matthewmacleod 9y ago
No, this is wrong. You do not (and cannot, since it’s BSD) have your license to use React revoked. You do have your additional patent grant revoked - that is, if you sue Facebook for patent infringement, you will lose the right that they previously granted to use any and all patents covering React. If we assume that any patents covering React also cover the alternatives such as Preact, the nothing is gained by avoiding React.

pluma 9y ago

According to the author of Preact, that's unlikely because Preact's implementation is very different (it's not just a cleanroom implementation of the same thing). However I'd be more worried that Facebook might hold patents not limited to React itself. Considering how arbitrary software patents often are, I would think it equally as likely that they hold patents covering aspects of Angular or Vue as React. I would also think it's equally as likely that Google holds patents covering aspects of React or GraphQL. As far as I know, unlike GraphQL, nobody has found any patents filed by Facebook that would actually cover any part of React, so right now the patent grant seems to be more of a statement of intent. But expecting you can dodge patent lawsuits by using different technology is absurd. The only way to avoid software patent lawsuits is not to own, deploy or produce software. The only winning move is not to play.

oneweekwonder 9y ago
> nobody has found any patents filed by Facebook that would actually cover any part of React, Somebody on /r/ posted this[0]. [0]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242 https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242
- christophilus 9y ago
  And I responded with this (curious for informed feedback): I just read it. I can't believe this patent was granted. If I'm reading it correctly, it's a patent for an old trick used by every OS and video game ever made. Basically, don't redraw things that aren't in view, and only redraw the bits of things that are in view. Anyway, I can't see how this is applicable to React, as it really isn't how the v-dom works at all. The v-dom isn't about failing to draw clipped items. The v-dom is about diffing two trees and only updating changed items. Am I totally off base here?
  - fiatjaf 9y ago
    Thank you, you made me comprehend why all software patents are nonsense.
  - 9y ago