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> The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test h

> The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. That overlooks the whole point of unions, which is to give people power over their work lives and prevent situations like the one you describe. Perhaps the union won't succeed, but they have far more negotiating power when they are organized than when they are not. > I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition. That's a powerful claim, but do you have evidence? Particular expertise?

sverige 9y ago
Not OP, but one example would be the relocation of manufacturing in many sectors away from union strongholds in the northeast US to southern states, Mexico, and Asia. Carrier is a recent example that sticks out in my memory.
briandear 9y ago
The problem with union negotiations is that members’ ability to earn isn’t related to the merits of the member’s ability. I don’t want to make the same exact wage as someone with the same seniority but perhaps less ambition. I am not an interchangeable widget. Everyone is not equal in value despite being equal in seniority or experience. A first year teacher might be amazing, but thanks to unions her wage is codified based on her position in the pecking order and not her merits.
- Frondo 9y ago
  Unions don't have to pay based on seniority. They are democratically organized, and as such, are structured to reflect the will of their members. Don't want seniority-based pay? Don't set up your union contract that way.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  That's the argument of a boss in version of the prisoners dilemma. The reality is that you are a widget, you probably make less several people whom you consider a less able and "ambitious" than you, and your salary is only loosely associated with your value, if at all.
  - CryptoPunk 9y ago
    That's the class warfare paradigm that boils the world down to two monolithic blocs: employers and employees. He is not a widget. A workforce is made up people with diverse and varying skills. It's in the interest of society to incentivise individual skills development and promotion of people with more skill into positions of greater authority and responsibility, by allowing employers to base compensation and promotion offers on skills.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      It's a market. I don't care about society, I care about delivering cash to my shareholders. All business is about repeatable process. Domain experts build a process. The operations people execute. Lather, rinse, repeat. People are nurtured/developed/promoted because it is cheaper to do that than to go back to the market. But, every single individual is expendable and replacable. There may be pain or cost associated with someone leaving, but a viable business will survive. If you think you are essential to your employer, film a little video explaining why, post or save it somewhere and set a calendar entry to visit it again in 5 years. You'll have a good laugh in 5 years.

sverige 9y ago

Not OP, but one example would be the relocation of manufacturing in many sectors away from union strongholds in the northeast US to southern states, Mexico, and Asia. Carrier is a recent example that sticks out in my memory.

briandear 9y ago

The problem with union negotiations is that members’ ability to earn isn’t related to the merits of the member’s ability. I don’t want to make the same exact wage as someone with the same seniority but perhaps less ambition. I am not an interchangeable widget. Everyone is not equal in value despite being equal in seniority or experience. A first year teacher might be amazing, but thanks to unions her wage is codified based on her position in the pecking order and not her merits.

Frondo 9y ago
Unions don't have to pay based on seniority. They are democratically organized, and as such, are structured to reflect the will of their members. Don't want seniority-based pay? Don't set up your union contract that way.
Spooky23 9y ago
That's the argument of a boss in version of the prisoners dilemma. The reality is that you are a widget, you probably make less several people whom you consider a less able and "ambitious" than you, and your salary is only loosely associated with your value, if at all.
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  That's the class warfare paradigm that boils the world down to two monolithic blocs: employers and employees. He is not a widget. A workforce is made up people with diverse and varying skills. It's in the interest of society to incentivise individual skills development and promotion of people with more skill into positions of greater authority and responsibility, by allowing employers to base compensation and promotion offers on skills.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    It's a market. I don't care about society, I care about delivering cash to my shareholders. All business is about repeatable process. Domain experts build a process. The operations people execute. Lather, rinse, repeat. People are nurtured/developed/promoted because it is cheaper to do that than to go back to the market. But, every single individual is expendable and replacable. There may be pain or cost associated with someone leaving, but a viable business will survive. If you think you are essential to your employer, film a little video explaining why, post or save it somewhere and set a calendar entry to visit it again in 5 years. You'll have a good laugh in 5 years.