3 ms·

>Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. Since there is a short supply of softwa

>Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? >every "open salary" calculator I've seen proposes a salary about half of what I make. Formulaic salaries help low performers and hurt high performers. I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. H1B mandates that they pay at least industry wages (or something like that). If the business declares the industry wages artificially low, they can hire cheap tech workers. Unions would prevent that. >At no point in the process do I think having someone else do negotiation for me would have increased my pay. Maybe, maybe not. It sure works well for NFL players. I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. >I don't need a union to do that. I certainly don't need a union with collective bargaining to do that. You can ask until your are blue in the face, but you will probably be ignored at most places. Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. >but I would not expect a union to increase my pay—and would vote against any one which promised that. That's not very good business sense. You should at least ask them to prove it before you flatly deny it. Let me ask you this, say you owned your own company and you partnered with another company on a joint venture. Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Sounds like you've sold yourself short and you either don't realize it, or you want to believe you are a good negotiator. You may be a good negotiator as an individual, but you just don't have the power of a group. Why do you think political parties exist? Group power always trumps individual power.

morgante 9y ago
> Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] > I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. I'm positive that open salary initiatives are not an attempt to hire H1B workers. I'm talking about things like this: https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator I bet Stack Overflow doesn't even have H1B workers. > I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. I know how much my new employer makes per employee, and I make well more than a tenth of that. I'd suspect I capture around 30-40% of my value. > Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. You and I seem to occupy very different segments of the tech industry. Every single employer I've ever worked for has given me carte blanche to request whatever equipment I need on my first day of work. Only stupid or nearsighted employers quibble over <$5k in equipment expenses for an employee they pay hundreds of thousands per year. > Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Why would I accept 1/100th of the profits of the join venture? I negotiate very aggressively—in fact, I'd argue that I once captured more than my value from a previous startup which ended up failing. I don't expect to capture 100% of the value, since the company is also providing resources which allow that value to be created (ex. significant existing scale). If I negotiate in a group, I have to accept the outcome of the outcome of the group. I have no interest in making what the average programmer makes. [0] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017 https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017
- nikanj 9y ago
  You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season
  - morgante 9y ago
    I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers. We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      >Just don't work for them. That's a pretty unrealistic solution, especially considering most companies are trying to reduce costs and don't understand the economics of good equipment. If you don't like hurricanes, just move away from the coast. Simple. /s
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Great analogy. I'm going to use that one. It's gotten so bad companies won't even let me bring in my own good hardware I paid for to use. Dual core laptops with 3 hours battery life, 24" 1920x1080 monitor, mechanical hard drives, all shit.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] So if you really look at those numbers, you left out a bunch of them that don't back up your assertion that salaries are skyrocketing like they should in an ultra-high demand field: SF Bay Area | 3.28% Seattle | 2.14% Austin | 0.96% Chicago | 0.57% New York | 0.25% Boston | 0.24% LA | -0.13% London | -1.7% Denver | -2.63% Washington D.C | -2.85% San Diego | -4.92% Toronto | -6.29% 1. Half of the areas in your link are decreasing average salary before inflation. 2. Anything under the 2% inflation target is considered a decrease in income. 3. After subtracting 2% for inflation, add the cost of living increase in SF which was 78% between 2000 and 2015, and you are probably decreasing wages. 4. A union negotiator would know that. The hiring managers sure do (or at least the CFOs). So let me ask the question a third time. If demand for tech workers is so high, why are wages flat? Do you think Apple/MS/Amazon/Google's EBITDA was that flat as well? http://www.bayareaeconomy.org/the-cost-of-living-continues-to-rise-for-bay-area-residents/ http://www.bayareaeconomy.org/the-cost-of-living-continues-t...

morgante 9y ago

> Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] > I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. I'm positive that open salary initiatives are not an attempt to hire H1B workers. I'm talking about things like this: https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator I bet Stack Overflow doesn't even have H1B workers. > I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. I know how much my new employer makes per employee, and I make well more than a tenth of that. I'd suspect I capture around 30-40% of my value. > Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. You and I seem to occupy very different segments of the tech industry. Every single employer I've ever worked for has given me carte blanche to request whatever equipment I need on my first day of work. Only stupid or nearsighted employers quibble over <$5k in equipment expenses for an employee they pay hundreds of thousands per year. > Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Why would I accept 1/100th of the profits of the join venture? I negotiate very aggressively—in fact, I'd argue that I once captured more than my value from a previous startup which ended up failing. I don't expect to capture 100% of the value, since the company is also providing resources which allow that value to be created (ex. significant existing scale). If I negotiate in a group, I have to accept the outcome of the outcome of the group. I have no interest in making what the average programmer makes. [0] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017 https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017

nikanj 9y ago
You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season
- morgante 9y ago
  I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers. We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    >Just don't work for them. That's a pretty unrealistic solution, especially considering most companies are trying to reduce costs and don't understand the economics of good equipment. If you don't like hurricanes, just move away from the coast. Simple. /s
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- Clubber 9y ago
  Great analogy. I'm going to use that one. It's gotten so bad companies won't even let me bring in my own good hardware I paid for to use. Dual core laptops with 3 hours battery life, 24" 1920x1080 monitor, mechanical hard drives, all shit.
Clubber 9y ago
>They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] So if you really look at those numbers, you left out a bunch of them that don't back up your assertion that salaries are skyrocketing like they should in an ultra-high demand field: SF Bay Area | 3.28% Seattle | 2.14% Austin | 0.96% Chicago | 0.57% New York | 0.25% Boston | 0.24% LA | -0.13% London | -1.7% Denver | -2.63% Washington D.C | -2.85% San Diego | -4.92% Toronto | -6.29% 1. Half of the areas in your link are decreasing average salary before inflation. 2. Anything under the 2% inflation target is considered a decrease in income. 3. After subtracting 2% for inflation, add the cost of living increase in SF which was 78% between 2000 and 2015, and you are probably decreasing wages. 4. A union negotiator would know that. The hiring managers sure do (or at least the CFOs). So let me ask the question a third time. If demand for tech workers is so high, why are wages flat? Do you think Apple/MS/Amazon/Google's EBITDA was that flat as well? http://www.bayareaeconomy.org/the-cost-of-living-continues-to-rise-for-bay-area-residents/ http://www.bayareaeconomy.org/the-cost-of-living-continues-t...