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> I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. By what mechanism? Either they engage in collective bargaining, which is filled

> I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. By what mechanism? Either they engage in collective bargaining, which is filled with problems, or artificially constrict the supply of labor by requiring additional licensing. Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. From where I'm standing, the current system works very well and is about as free as a labor market can be. I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there involved talking to about two dozen companies, narrowing those down to 6 or 7 offers and having each company submit a bid (initial offer). I pruned off the bottom half and had the top 2-3 companies submit revised bids based on competitor info and ultimately chose a company which offered a great mix of compensation and role/culture. At no point in the process do I think having someone else do negotiation for me would have increased my pay. In fact, I'm convinced that any collective bargaining arrangement would mean a significant reduction in my compensation—for one thing, every "open salary" calculator I've seen proposes a salary about half of what I make. Formulaic salaries help low performers and hurt high performers. > If nothing else, they could communicate with the business on how to make developers happy and comfortable; something the business might be willing to do, but don't know how to do. I don't need a union to do that. I certainly don't need a union with collective bargaining to do that. Tech "unions" might make sense to enshrine certain ethical principles, but I would not expect a union to increase my pay—and would vote against any one which promised that.

Clubber 9y ago
>Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? >every "open salary" calculator I've seen proposes a salary about half of what I make. Formulaic salaries help low performers and hurt high performers. I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. H1B mandates that they pay at least industry wages (or something like that). If the business declares the industry wages artificially low, they can hire cheap tech workers. Unions would prevent that. >At no point in the process do I think having someone else do negotiation for me would have increased my pay. Maybe, maybe not. It sure works well for NFL players. I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. >I don't need a union to do that. I certainly don't need a union with collective bargaining to do that. You can ask until your are blue in the face, but you will probably be ignored at most places. Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. >but I would not expect a union to increase my pay—and would vote against any one which promised that. That's not very good business sense. You should at least ask them to prove it before you flatly deny it. Let me ask you this, say you owned your own company and you partnered with another company on a joint venture. Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Sounds like you've sold yourself short and you either don't realize it, or you want to believe you are a good negotiator. You may be a good negotiator as an individual, but you just don't have the power of a group. Why do you think political parties exist? Group power always trumps individual power.
- morgante 9y ago
  > Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] > I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. I'm positive that open salary initiatives are not an attempt to hire H1B workers. I'm talking about things like this: https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator I bet Stack Overflow doesn't even have H1B workers. > I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. I know how much my new employer makes per employee, and I make well more than a tenth of that. I'd suspect I capture around 30-40% of my value. > Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. You and I seem to occupy very different segments of the tech industry. Every single employer I've ever worked for has given me carte blanche to request whatever equipment I need on my first day of work. Only stupid or nearsighted employers quibble over <$5k in equipment expenses for an employee they pay hundreds of thousands per year. > Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Why would I accept 1/100th of the profits of the join venture? I negotiate very aggressively—in fact, I'd argue that I once captured more than my value from a previous startup which ended up failing. I don't expect to capture 100% of the value, since the company is also providing resources which allow that value to be created (ex. significant existing scale). If I negotiate in a group, I have to accept the outcome of the outcome of the group. I have no interest in making what the average programmer makes. [0] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017 https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017
  - nikanj 9y ago
    You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season
    - morgante 9y ago
      I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers. We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.
Spooky23 9y ago
The total value of my compensation as a formerly unionized technology guy was on par with a tech company and probably higher than average, adjusting for cost of living. Everyone on HN is a performer, but the reality is that most people benefit, and most high performers will work for a lot less.
ryandrake 9y ago
> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there involved talking to about two dozen companies, narrowing those down to 6 or 7 offers and having each company submit a bid (initial offer). I pruned off the bottom half and had the top 2-3 companies submit revised bids based on competitor info and ultimately chose a company which offered a great mix of compensation and role/culture. Congratulations. While I don't doubt your story, you must realize your experience is an extreme outlier. Most people I know consider themselves lucky to get one offer after talking to two dozen companies, if that. With no alternatives, you have little power to negotiate: you take it or leave it. And once you're hired, it's no different than any other job--you are employed at the will of your employer. Any day can be your last.
- morgante 9y ago
  > If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing In my corner of the world, they definitely are. I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working on companies whose primary product isn't software. The hiring market for both markets looks very different, especially since people don't really recognize that as such. A hiring manager in the prime market might legitimately perceive there as being a shortage, even when receiving dozens or hundreds of resumes because the vast majority of those resumes are simply not qualified. When I was last hiring, we received plenty of resumes—but many of those resumes were from people who exclusively had Microsoft experience or simply maintained WordPress installations. They didn't meet my standard for a senior developer, and once we found someone who did meet that standard after months of searching we did whatever it took to hire them. I don't feel like an outlier, since I'm looking at the market from the prime sector where it's normal and expected to have multiple competing offers. There can be a shortage of senior developers while still having hundreds of applications for every open position because most of those applications won't pass the bar. If you're capable of passing that bar, you have your pick of positions.
msla 9y ago
The only thing tech unions would enshrine is the use of certain companies' proprietary technology, by way of requiring entrants to be qualified in it as part of a licensing regime. In short, I have zero confidence tech unions wouldn't be owned by the big tech industry companies.

Clubber 9y ago

>Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? >every "open salary" calculator I've seen proposes a salary about half of what I make. Formulaic salaries help low performers and hurt high performers. I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. H1B mandates that they pay at least industry wages (or something like that). If the business declares the industry wages artificially low, they can hire cheap tech workers. Unions would prevent that. >At no point in the process do I think having someone else do negotiation for me would have increased my pay. Maybe, maybe not. It sure works well for NFL players. I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. >I don't need a union to do that. I certainly don't need a union with collective bargaining to do that. You can ask until your are blue in the face, but you will probably be ignored at most places. Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. >but I would not expect a union to increase my pay—and would vote against any one which promised that. That's not very good business sense. You should at least ask them to prove it before you flatly deny it. Let me ask you this, say you owned your own company and you partnered with another company on a joint venture. Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Sounds like you've sold yourself short and you either don't realize it, or you want to believe you are a good negotiator. You may be a good negotiator as an individual, but you just don't have the power of a group. Why do you think political parties exist? Group power always trumps individual power.

morgante 9y ago
> Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] > I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. I'm positive that open salary initiatives are not an attempt to hire H1B workers. I'm talking about things like this: https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator I bet Stack Overflow doesn't even have H1B workers. > I seriously doubt you are getting a tenth of what you make for the company. There's only so far you can go by yourself. I know how much my new employer makes per employee, and I make well more than a tenth of that. I'd suspect I capture around 30-40% of my value. > Also, you wouldn't have to fight for 6 months to get a decent monitor, it will just be there. You and I seem to occupy very different segments of the tech industry. Every single employer I've ever worked for has given me carte blanche to request whatever equipment I need on my first day of work. Only stupid or nearsighted employers quibble over <$5k in equipment expenses for an employee they pay hundreds of thousands per year. > Do you think it would be a good negotiation if your company only got 1/100th of the profits of the joint venture? That's probably what you are getting now. Why would I accept 1/100th of the profits of the join venture? I negotiate very aggressively—in fact, I'd argue that I once captured more than my value from a previous startup which ended up failing. I don't expect to capture 100% of the value, since the company is also providing resources which allow that value to be created (ex. significant existing scale). If I negotiate in a group, I have to accept the outcome of the outcome of the group. I have no interest in making what the average programmer makes. [0] https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017 https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017
- nikanj 9y ago
  You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season
  - morgante 9y ago
    I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers. We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.

Spooky23 9y ago

The total value of my compensation as a formerly unionized technology guy was on par with a tech company and probably higher than average, adjusting for cost of living. Everyone on HN is a performer, but the reality is that most people benefit, and most high performers will work for a lot less.

ryandrake 9y ago

> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there involved talking to about two dozen companies, narrowing those down to 6 or 7 offers and having each company submit a bid (initial offer). I pruned off the bottom half and had the top 2-3 companies submit revised bids based on competitor info and ultimately chose a company which offered a great mix of compensation and role/culture. Congratulations. While I don't doubt your story, you must realize your experience is an extreme outlier. Most people I know consider themselves lucky to get one offer after talking to two dozen companies, if that. With no alternatives, you have little power to negotiate: you take it or leave it. And once you're hired, it's no different than any other job--you are employed at the will of your employer. Any day can be your last.

morgante 9y ago
> If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing In my corner of the world, they definitely are. I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working on companies whose primary product isn't software. The hiring market for both markets looks very different, especially since people don't really recognize that as such. A hiring manager in the prime market might legitimately perceive there as being a shortage, even when receiving dozens or hundreds of resumes because the vast majority of those resumes are simply not qualified. When I was last hiring, we received plenty of resumes—but many of those resumes were from people who exclusively had Microsoft experience or simply maintained WordPress installations. They didn't meet my standard for a senior developer, and once we found someone who did meet that standard after months of searching we did whatever it took to hire them. I don't feel like an outlier, since I'm looking at the market from the prime sector where it's normal and expected to have multiple competing offers. There can be a shortage of senior developers while still having hundreds of applications for every open position because most of those applications won't pass the bar. If you're capable of passing that bar, you have your pick of positions.

msla 9y ago

The only thing tech unions would enshrine is the use of certain companies' proprietary technology, by way of requiring entrants to be qualified in it as part of a licensing regime. In short, I have zero confidence tech unions wouldn't be owned by the big tech industry companies.