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> I just happen to think that that medium is physics Could you clarify what you mean by that? Physics is branch of knowledge, a collection of descriptions of r

> I just happen to think that that medium is physics Could you clarify what you mean by that? Physics is branch of knowledge, a collection of descriptions of regularities in material structures evolving in time. I don't see how a collection of descriptions can be the medium in which subjectivity/qualia exist. See what I mean? Or you mean what's referred to in those descriptions? If so, I see a difficulty in it because you just get back to the same subjectivity/qualia problem. I mean, what is being referred to in those descriptions? Our starting point for what physics is talking about is subjectivity—the only thing we have direct empirical contact with. Then we make abstractions on top of it so that various parts are grouped into 'objects' etc. (that grouping is largely subconscious), and then physics comes into play in giving descriptions of regularities in the time evolution of categories of those objects. But none of that deals with what the objects being discussed are, it just just talks about how a selection of characteristics which happen to be useful to use change in time. I know some people believe the best we can do is say that what something is is the collection of things we say about it. So, the things being referred to in physics are the regularities in certain of their attributes, e.g. the measurements we make of their mass and velocity, and the forces being applied to them or which they are applying etc. Personally that sounds like a cop-out, though granted, it's at least an attempt at a pragmatic cop-out: after all, what's the point in entertaining the idea that there's more to the thing if we know we can never access it/talk about it. But here's the value: if you just admit the boundaries to your knowledge, your taking a more realistic account of things (the alternative of pretending the boundaries aren't there can only lead to mistakes). In that case, we have not discovered what the things are which are referred to by physics, we have just charted regularities in certain attributes we care about (it's also important to note that we invented those attributes, and which set of attributes we deem to be the intrinsic/essential characteristics have a degree of arbitrariness to them since multiple equivalent formulations exist—e.g. reformulations of Newtonian mechanics which give the same outputs for the same inputs but in which the notion of 'force' does not exist, or relativistic/quantum mechanics of course, though that's moving beyond strict reformulation). Edit: I clarified a number of things on re-reading a few minutes after posting!

glenstein 9y ago
I must have done a bad job explaining it, because I don't think it's a cop-out at all, and I would have hoped that even you would have agreed with that much, even if you disagreed with me in the end. A cop-out would be blithely insisting qualia don't exist (like some people in this thread are doing), or insisting that one or another philosophical explanation is forbidden "by definition." And in my opinion, saying it's "emergent" would be a cop-out because often "emergence" just serves to label a phenomena without explaining it. By contrast, saying that qualia are nakedly physical is to say that they are something, and to say that we are witnessing raw physical events in a direct way is to at least aspire (successfully, I would hope) to give some tangible account of what it is for a mind to have qualia in a way that respects the first person perspective. That could be wrong or confused or unpersuasive in any number of ways. But it's at least something more than a cop-out. There is more to it than that, and I'm happy to give my best shot at taking that starting point, and applying some philosophical duct-tape to those starting pieces to try to show what it would mean to say qualia are literally physical, and what kind of explanation gives them their due as "real" while still tying them to the physical world. But that may be a long conversation, and I am humble enough to know I won't be able to settle one of the oldest philosophical issues in a hacker news thread. So I would like to at least point to literature that drives my intuitions on the subject. Consciousness Explained, by Daniel Dennett, to at least pump the intuition that we should not merely regard a physicalist account of conscious as a legitimate answer to the hard problem, but as the leading candidate for explanation, maybe even the only game in town. Caveat being that he does insist that we should deny qualia altogether in the end, which I think is a cop-out. But he brings the ball to the 1 yard line. Godel Escher Bach & I Am A Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter, to drive home that a key aspect of consciousness is the ability for a system (be it a brain or computer) to interpret the medium that it itself is a part of. Hofstadter I think has the idea that brings it into the end zone, but wouldn't be able to get to the 1-yard line by himself. "The Intertwining—The Chiasm" by Maurice-Merleau Ponty, who gives a powerful argument that turns the tables against the subject/object distinction. Killer quote: "What is this talisman of color, this singular virtue of the visible that makes it, held at the end of the gaze, nonetheless much more than a correlative of my vision, such that it imposes my vision upon me as a continuation of its own sovereign existence?" I didn't get to everything, but I wanted to put enough on the table to make this a satisfactory end point to the conversation if need be.

glenstein 9y ago

I must have done a bad job explaining it, because I don't think it's a cop-out at all, and I would have hoped that even you would have agreed with that much, even if you disagreed with me in the end. A cop-out would be blithely insisting qualia don't exist (like some people in this thread are doing), or insisting that one or another philosophical explanation is forbidden "by definition." And in my opinion, saying it's "emergent" would be a cop-out because often "emergence" just serves to label a phenomena without explaining it. By contrast, saying that qualia are nakedly physical is to say that they are something, and to say that we are witnessing raw physical events in a direct way is to at least aspire (successfully, I would hope) to give some tangible account of what it is for a mind to have qualia in a way that respects the first person perspective. That could be wrong or confused or unpersuasive in any number of ways. But it's at least something more than a cop-out. There is more to it than that, and I'm happy to give my best shot at taking that starting point, and applying some philosophical duct-tape to those starting pieces to try to show what it would mean to say qualia are literally physical, and what kind of explanation gives them their due as "real" while still tying them to the physical world. But that may be a long conversation, and I am humble enough to know I won't be able to settle one of the oldest philosophical issues in a hacker news thread. So I would like to at least point to literature that drives my intuitions on the subject. Consciousness Explained, by Daniel Dennett, to at least pump the intuition that we should not merely regard a physicalist account of conscious as a legitimate answer to the hard problem, but as the leading candidate for explanation, maybe even the only game in town. Caveat being that he does insist that we should deny qualia altogether in the end, which I think is a cop-out. But he brings the ball to the 1 yard line. Godel Escher Bach & I Am A Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter, to drive home that a key aspect of consciousness is the ability for a system (be it a brain or computer) to interpret the medium that it itself is a part of. Hofstadter I think has the idea that brings it into the end zone, but wouldn't be able to get to the 1-yard line by himself. "The Intertwining—The Chiasm" by Maurice-Merleau Ponty, who gives a powerful argument that turns the tables against the subject/object distinction. Killer quote: "What is this talisman of color, this singular virtue of the visible that makes it, held at the end of the gaze, nonetheless much more than a correlative of my vision, such that it imposes my vision upon me as a continuation of its own sovereign existence?" I didn't get to everything, but I wanted to put enough on the table to make this a satisfactory end point to the conversation if need be.