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I start all kinds of projects with minimal requirements. You obviously have to have something to start but I'll go into a meeting with a notepad and suss out w

I start all kinds of projects with minimal requirements. You obviously have to have something to start but I'll go into a meeting with a notepad and suss out what's need enough to get started. In my opinion, true agile is rapidly getting code in the hands of users as quickly as possible. Then iterating on that. You don't need a lot of requirements to get started. But need to be not afraid of change! Things will change (maybe everything will change) and that's ok -- plan for change. This author starts with the implicit premise that change is bad and all conclusions are the result of that. I've been involved in a few "Agile" projects implemented in hard-to-change platforms. And ultimately it's just disguised waterfall -- if you can't change the product then you're doing big planning up front.

Jtsummers 9y ago
> This author starts with the implicit premise that change is bad and all conclusions are the result of that. Where in the article do you draw this conclusion from? Change isn't bad. The article doesn't say change is bad. Change introduces complexities. And unclear or ill-defined objectives (aka, requirements) make change more likely.
pottereric 9y ago
> This author starts with the implicit premise that change is bad and all conclusions are the result of that. How did you come to that conclusion? The theme of what I was saying is that projects to be given direction from the stakeholders. I never said anything to suggest that the direction couldn't change.
- wvenable 9y ago
  Is it actually a problem that you've seen in real life where programmers write code without any direction? That seems impossible. A program exists to solve a problem. You might have a pretty vague idea of the details of that problem but ultimately you know what it is. If programmers are coding whatever they want based on wildly unfounded assumptions then they're not doing Salmon Ladder development -- they're just terrible developers. If they're given some direction, coding, and iterating on that result then that's great. Even if they make some wrong assumptions at first, I don't see anything wrong with that.
  - pottereric 9y ago
    It is a problem I've seen in the real world. For example, I've seen a project where upper management tasked a team of developers with writing software and didn't give the team specific direction nor did they communicate clear goals for the software. The team asked for more details, and the management told them to "do it agile". The team wrote good software, but they solved the wrong problem.
    - wvenable 9y ago
      This is not a software development process issue. If management is bad, doesn't understand the process, and there isn't buy in then the project will fail. Take that same team and same management and do it waterfall and I doubt the outcome would be any different. But it is not just management that is at fault. Those developers did not have enough backbone to push back. Instead of educating management about the process or telling them it can't be done they just sulked back to their cubicles and coded. There is no surprise it turned out wrong. I see where you're coming from on this; you cannot build any product without communicating with the stakeholders. That communication can be rough scribble diagrams, notes, detailed requirements, meetings showing off prototypes -- really anything. All software development processes are about communication.
      - mannykannot 9y ago
        > this is not a software development process issue... [followed by a list of software development process issues.]
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    I have seen quite a few cases where more thought to work through the specific implications and consequences following from "vague ideas of the details" would likely have quickly identified problems that did not emerge until a bunch of code had been written.

Jtsummers 9y ago

> This author starts with the implicit premise that change is bad and all conclusions are the result of that. Where in the article do you draw this conclusion from? Change isn't bad. The article doesn't say change is bad. Change introduces complexities. And unclear or ill-defined objectives (aka, requirements) make change more likely.

pottereric 9y ago

> This author starts with the implicit premise that change is bad and all conclusions are the result of that. How did you come to that conclusion? The theme of what I was saying is that projects to be given direction from the stakeholders. I never said anything to suggest that the direction couldn't change.

wvenable 9y ago
Is it actually a problem that you've seen in real life where programmers write code without any direction? That seems impossible. A program exists to solve a problem. You might have a pretty vague idea of the details of that problem but ultimately you know what it is. If programmers are coding whatever they want based on wildly unfounded assumptions then they're not doing Salmon Ladder development -- they're just terrible developers. If they're given some direction, coding, and iterating on that result then that's great. Even if they make some wrong assumptions at first, I don't see anything wrong with that.
- pottereric 9y ago
  It is a problem I've seen in the real world. For example, I've seen a project where upper management tasked a team of developers with writing software and didn't give the team specific direction nor did they communicate clear goals for the software. The team asked for more details, and the management told them to "do it agile". The team wrote good software, but they solved the wrong problem.
  - wvenable 9y ago
    This is not a software development process issue. If management is bad, doesn't understand the process, and there isn't buy in then the project will fail. Take that same team and same management and do it waterfall and I doubt the outcome would be any different. But it is not just management that is at fault. Those developers did not have enough backbone to push back. Instead of educating management about the process or telling them it can't be done they just sulked back to their cubicles and coded. There is no surprise it turned out wrong. I see where you're coming from on this; you cannot build any product without communicating with the stakeholders. That communication can be rough scribble diagrams, notes, detailed requirements, meetings showing off prototypes -- really anything. All software development processes are about communication.
    - mannykannot 9y ago
      > this is not a software development process issue... [followed by a list of software development process issues.]
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- mannykannot 9y ago
  I have seen quite a few cases where more thought to work through the specific implications and consequences following from "vague ideas of the details" would likely have quickly identified problems that did not emerge until a bunch of code had been written.