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> Once you grok the virtual environment thing it's incredible how hard it is to get some people on board with this. I've gotten used to good project-local pack

> Once you grok the virtual environment thing it's incredible how hard it is to get some people on board with this. I've gotten used to good project-local package management in other langauges, I can't imaging working with anything that depended on stuff happening to be available in a global namespace ever again.

dom0 9y ago
There are still widely used packages that don't work with pip, like PyQt.
whipoodle 9y ago
It is a bit more of a pain to work with than similar features in other languages. Like as far as I know you can't just move a venv, you have to rebuild it in the new place. Whereas `node_modules` is just a dir. Also, there is a weird layering where venv abstracts away installed eggs/wheels/whatever they're calling them these days, but then since that's still painful to work with, you need another layer on top like virtualenvtools or burrito or whatever it is. (Sorry, it's been a couple years so my memory is fuzzy)
- Zaak 9y ago
  Yeah, Python's environment/import logic is really convoluted. It evolved organically with little forethought, and only got a minimal pruning with Python 3.
  - chrshawkes 9y ago
    It was essentially created by one dude no?
- qaq 9y ago
  "a bit"? honestly I would say it's much closer to a lot more pain
  - whipoodle 9y ago
    I was being kind. :)
wooly_bully 9y ago
Have them try Pipenv! https://github.com/kennethreitz/pipenv https://github.com/kennethreitz/pipenv While virtualenv management isn't that difficult, Pipenv is VERY intuitive.
gilrain 9y ago
As someone who has largely moved from Python to Node: it's not the concept of project-local packages that is the problem. It's virtualenv's awful implementation and UI.
- pletnes 9y ago
  Tried conda or pipenv?
- andybak 9y ago
  Maybe I've got Stockholm Syndrome but I never have any trouble with pip. I don't find it any worse than npm for my usage patterns.
  - jplatte 9y ago
    I'm one of those people who are really confused about the whole Python project management situation. Is there a resource where I can learn the equivalent of common operations found in other project management tools such as npm / yarn / cargo? E.g. is there something like 'cargo run' that just checks that the required python version is installed (I got the impression that this can be specified somewhere), installs deps if they're not installed yet and then runs the main module? Or something like 'npm install --save' that adds the latest version of a package you already know the name of as a dependency and installs it?

dom0 9y ago

There are still widely used packages that don't work with pip, like PyQt.

whipoodle 9y ago

It is a bit more of a pain to work with than similar features in other languages. Like as far as I know you can't just move a venv, you have to rebuild it in the new place. Whereas `node_modules` is just a dir. Also, there is a weird layering where venv abstracts away installed eggs/wheels/whatever they're calling them these days, but then since that's still painful to work with, you need another layer on top like virtualenvtools or burrito or whatever it is. (Sorry, it's been a couple years so my memory is fuzzy)

Zaak 9y ago
Yeah, Python's environment/import logic is really convoluted. It evolved organically with little forethought, and only got a minimal pruning with Python 3.
- chrshawkes 9y ago
  It was essentially created by one dude no?
qaq 9y ago
"a bit"? honestly I would say it's much closer to a lot more pain
- whipoodle 9y ago
  I was being kind. :)

wooly_bully 9y ago

Have them try Pipenv! https://github.com/kennethreitz/pipenv https://github.com/kennethreitz/pipenv While virtualenv management isn't that difficult, Pipenv is VERY intuitive.

gilrain 9y ago

As someone who has largely moved from Python to Node: it's not the concept of project-local packages that is the problem. It's virtualenv's awful implementation and UI.

pletnes 9y ago
Tried conda or pipenv?
andybak 9y ago
Maybe I've got Stockholm Syndrome but I never have any trouble with pip. I don't find it any worse than npm for my usage patterns.
- jplatte 9y ago
  I'm one of those people who are really confused about the whole Python project management situation. Is there a resource where I can learn the equivalent of common operations found in other project management tools such as npm / yarn / cargo? E.g. is there something like 'cargo run' that just checks that the required python version is installed (I got the impression that this can be specified somewhere), installs deps if they're not installed yet and then runs the main module? Or something like 'npm install --save' that adds the latest version of a package you already know the name of as a dependency and installs it?