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Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like

Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like you said programmers should unionize before the army of $12/hour programmers arrives then what you are claiming is that software development could be done by someone who was trained and willing to accept $12 per hour. Essentially you are making the claim they are a common laborer much like a construction worker or delivery driver ( both of whom make more then $12/ hour ). If however you view software development as a profession requiring intelligence and a deep understanding of the subject matter then you don't care about the $12/hour laborers because they will never be able to replicate the work of a qualified professional. The people who don't want a union aren't resisting it because they want to live in some libertarian wet dream, they are resisting it because they see their profession as something that can't be reduced to common labor and they don't see a labor union as able to provide any benefits, as indeed they don't when you are dealing with a profession. The push to get people to unionize is not about workers rights its about putting technology professionals in the place business owners want them in. No one likes the idea that software is eating the world and there is a limited group of people , who are not the traditional power brokers, who are very well positioned to capitalize on that. They would much rather that software development become a commodity so they can continue their model of capital vs labor.

_jal 9y ago
This is very close to my thinking. I've joked before that, in order for a tech union drive to work, it would have to be recast as some sort of medieval-guild-style exploitation of secret knowledge power-play/conspiracy to get the libertarians on board.
tptacek 9y ago
Absolutely the most common objection to labor organization is that it's something associated intrinsically with low-status commodified occupations. But that's a fallacy. Most of the classic professions are organized. They're usually organized around professional associations and not "labor unions", and their collective bargaining concerns things other than their wages. But those are distinctions without differences. Yes, tech workers aren't going to create the Tech Teamsters. That's an easy question to put to rest. But that doesn't dispose of the issue. Tech workers should organize, now, when their market power is at its zenith. There's a good discussion to have about what the resulting organizations look like. But there's less of a tenable argument about whether they should try at all. Clearly, it seems to me, they should.
- dkhenry 9y ago
  organizations are very different from labor unions. I think software engineering would be well served by a professional association, but they have the problem of having deep connections to higher education institutions and licensing boards. I don't think our industry would be well served by the same kind of educational gate keeping that limits the availability of Doctors and Lawyers ( like what the NSPE, or IEEE try to push )
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I agree with you that professional organizations are a better model than AFL-style unions. I agree with you that academic gatekeeping is a bad fit for tech workers (coincidentally, I have just one semester of college). I think we need to be careful not to let ourselves, as a community of people sharing an occupation in this market, get derailed by the connotations of the word "union".
- mseebach 9y ago
  My fear for a tech union is whether it will deny someone like me the kind of opportunity I was very fortunate to enjoy roughly 10-20 years ago. At lot of us here got our starts under scrappy circumstances and with lots of hustling. I am very cautious not to support any move that will amount to pulling up the ladder behind me. You mentioned AMA in another comment; will our tech union require eight years of university and one year of residency at IniTech to "practice programming"? Will it require a minimum hourly wage? At what rate? My first programming job at 17 wasn't super well paid, but better than working at the gas station. Will there be an ethics committee that might get high-jacked by activists and "disbar" programmers working for sites with objectionable content? Or the NSA or ICE? And if it can't do any of those things, what teeth will it actually have?
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I have effectively no college, and went to work right after high school. Whatever labor organization tech workers come up with doesn't have to be the AFL-CIO and it doesn't have to be the AMA. It can just take the best attributes from all those organizations. Or it can start more modestly! Maybe tech workers will just come up with two or three things --- say, late exercise on options and better IP clauses --- and just start by organizing around those.
watwut 9y ago
So, how are we going to rename simple programming? There were always easy tasks and difficult tasks and both are called programming. Difficult tasks that require deep understanding are actually less common then easy tasks.
crdoconnor 9y ago
If the PhDs and postdocs - who are not performing "common labor" either - can get totally screwed (and they are), so can you.
- cinquemb 9y ago
  But the kiss the PI's ass while playing the shit papers out/ strip for grant money game is pretty common and doesn't take much competence, outside of regurgitating the current pet theories of a field waiting to die out with the next funeral… and that's after one has most likely loaded up on a shit tonne of debt… or on visa of some sort…[0] [0] Experience working/consulting for various labs
21 9y ago
Plane pilots are unionized, at least in UK or US. Your average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour. Do you consider them a common laborer, like a delivery driver, or a profession that doesn't require a deep understanding of the subject matter?
- jasode 9y ago
  >average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour. No. The captains with a 10+ years seniority flying international routes might make that. The average is closer to $59/hour[1]. The average is lower than people think because many budget airliners pay only $20k for 1st year pilots. The waves of downsizing also cut salaries. That's for USA pilots. I don't know about UK. Many programmers with barely a few years experience can get salaries beyond $59/hour without union representation which is partly why unionization is not an urgent need in the profession. [1] http://work.chron.com/average-commercial-airline-pilots-salary-11855.html http://work.chron.com/average-commercial-airline-pilots-sala...
- closeparen 9y ago
  And as a result, piloting is a deeply unattractive career path because all new pilots must start in, and many will never make it past, the regional airlines with much lower pay and worse working conditions. As in other fields, the pilots' union creates a two-tiered system where the haves (major airline pilots) enjoy great wages and conditions off the backs of the have-nots (regional airline pilots) who are miserable. While unions are meant to extract value from capitalists and management, they often seem to end up extracting it from prospective and early-career workers who haven't yet made it to union membership.

_jal 9y ago

This is very close to my thinking. I've joked before that, in order for a tech union drive to work, it would have to be recast as some sort of medieval-guild-style exploitation of secret knowledge power-play/conspiracy to get the libertarians on board.

tptacek 9y ago

Absolutely the most common objection to labor organization is that it's something associated intrinsically with low-status commodified occupations. But that's a fallacy. Most of the classic professions are organized. They're usually organized around professional associations and not "labor unions", and their collective bargaining concerns things other than their wages. But those are distinctions without differences. Yes, tech workers aren't going to create the Tech Teamsters. That's an easy question to put to rest. But that doesn't dispose of the issue. Tech workers should organize, now, when their market power is at its zenith. There's a good discussion to have about what the resulting organizations look like. But there's less of a tenable argument about whether they should try at all. Clearly, it seems to me, they should.

dkhenry 9y ago
organizations are very different from labor unions. I think software engineering would be well served by a professional association, but they have the problem of having deep connections to higher education institutions and licensing boards. I don't think our industry would be well served by the same kind of educational gate keeping that limits the availability of Doctors and Lawyers ( like what the NSPE, or IEEE try to push )
- tptacek 9y ago
  I agree with you that professional organizations are a better model than AFL-style unions. I agree with you that academic gatekeeping is a bad fit for tech workers (coincidentally, I have just one semester of college). I think we need to be careful not to let ourselves, as a community of people sharing an occupation in this market, get derailed by the connotations of the word "union".
mseebach 9y ago
My fear for a tech union is whether it will deny someone like me the kind of opportunity I was very fortunate to enjoy roughly 10-20 years ago. At lot of us here got our starts under scrappy circumstances and with lots of hustling. I am very cautious not to support any move that will amount to pulling up the ladder behind me. You mentioned AMA in another comment; will our tech union require eight years of university and one year of residency at IniTech to "practice programming"? Will it require a minimum hourly wage? At what rate? My first programming job at 17 wasn't super well paid, but better than working at the gas station. Will there be an ethics committee that might get high-jacked by activists and "disbar" programmers working for sites with objectionable content? Or the NSA or ICE? And if it can't do any of those things, what teeth will it actually have?
- tptacek 9y ago
  I have effectively no college, and went to work right after high school. Whatever labor organization tech workers come up with doesn't have to be the AFL-CIO and it doesn't have to be the AMA. It can just take the best attributes from all those organizations. Or it can start more modestly! Maybe tech workers will just come up with two or three things --- say, late exercise on options and better IP clauses --- and just start by organizing around those.

watwut 9y ago

So, how are we going to rename simple programming? There were always easy tasks and difficult tasks and both are called programming. Difficult tasks that require deep understanding are actually less common then easy tasks.

crdoconnor 9y ago

If the PhDs and postdocs - who are not performing "common labor" either - can get totally screwed (and they are), so can you.

cinquemb 9y ago
But the kiss the PI's ass while playing the shit papers out/ strip for grant money game is pretty common and doesn't take much competence, outside of regurgitating the current pet theories of a field waiting to die out with the next funeral… and that's after one has most likely loaded up on a shit tonne of debt… or on visa of some sort…[0] [0] Experience working/consulting for various labs

21 9y ago

Plane pilots are unionized, at least in UK or US. Your average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour. Do you consider them a common laborer, like a delivery driver, or a profession that doesn't require a deep understanding of the subject matter?

jasode 9y ago
>average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour. No. The captains with a 10+ years seniority flying international routes might make that. The average is closer to $59/hour[1]. The average is lower than people think because many budget airliners pay only $20k for 1st year pilots. The waves of downsizing also cut salaries. That's for USA pilots. I don't know about UK. Many programmers with barely a few years experience can get salaries beyond $59/hour without union representation which is partly why unionization is not an urgent need in the profession. [1] http://work.chron.com/average-commercial-airline-pilots-salary-11855.html http://work.chron.com/average-commercial-airline-pilots-sala...
closeparen 9y ago
And as a result, piloting is a deeply unattractive career path because all new pilots must start in, and many will never make it past, the regional airlines with much lower pay and worse working conditions. As in other fields, the pilots' union creates a two-tiered system where the haves (major airline pilots) enjoy great wages and conditions off the backs of the have-nots (regional airline pilots) who are miserable. While unions are meant to extract value from capitalists and management, they often seem to end up extracting it from prospective and early-career workers who haven't yet made it to union membership.